Why We Keep Showing Up at Carbon Unbound
The agony and the ecstasy of putting on the event that gathers the carbon dioxide removal industry.
This is episode 396 of the Reversing Climate Change podcast. You can listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your shows. You can also listen to it in its entirety right below this paragraph.
Quick Takeaways
10% Discount Code for Carbon Unbound East Coast: ReversingClimateChange
Carbon Unbound sees ~50% new attendees at every event, despite it feeling like a similar crowd
The adaptation event series (Adapt Unbound) was paused after the Amsterdam/flooding-focused edition couldn’t capture enough audience—Oli is candid about the economics not working
Carbon Unbound is entirely bootstrapped: no investors, all revenue-supported
New York (May) will feature CDR-sourced coffee and chocolate on the morning of day one
Three anchor events going forward: US West Coast, US East Coast, Europe—with eyes on Asia, Africa, Middle East
The pay-to-play dynamics of conference speaking slots are real, and the economics of running these events require it. How much is it like first class passengers subsidizing coach?
I described the Unbound team to Oli—before I hit record, naturally—as steppe horsemen. A nation of people we didn’t know existed who swooped in and conquered one very specific segment of carbon removal. As far as I’m concerned, Carbon Unbound is the main place that CDR professionals gather. A couple other events’ feelings might get hurt by that, but it’s what most of my peers would say.
And yet. Events are expensive. Travel is disruptive. Everyone’s budget is tighter. Oli’s been doing this since 2023 and he’s watching the industry mature in real time, which means the pitch can’t just be “come hang out with your friends.” He has to answer the question every potential attendee is asking: what’s my return on this three-day investment?
What I find interesting is that the answer might not be what you’d expect. Oli talks about the content and the networking as the two pillars, and sure, both matter. But here’s the thing I keep coming back to: I spend most of my time at these events in the hallway. I’m barely in the main stage room. The value, for me, is almost entirely in the collisions—I know exactly who you should meet, I was just talking to them, let me pull you over here. I probably did that 50 times in Vancouver. That’s not an exaggeration. Maybe a slight one.
The reason I went to Vancouver in the first place was to run campfire sessions on founder grief and the emotional difficulty of this work. Chatham House rules, nothing on the record. The people who attended were like, wow, it was really nice to be able to just say the quiet part out loud. I don’t think that session works on Zoom. There’s something about being in a room with someone when you’re talking about the real stuff—it’s like the difference between telehealth and being in the room with your therapist. Hard to articulate why it’s better, but I feel it, and I think most people do.
Oli asked me if I’m becoming a CDR therapist. Maybe. For a long time I was pretty emotionally closed off to this stuff, and then the longer I coached companies, the more I realized how many of these problems are emotional, spiritual, psychological—not merely strategic. Often those things are all tied up together. Which makes me gooier than I ever thought I was. But people connect with it, so here we are.
One thing that surprised me: Oli says Carbon Unbound gets about 50% new attendees at every event. That seems impossible when you look around the room and recognize everyone, but it’s different people from different organizations, new players entering CDR all the time. The industry feels small until you count.
We got into the economics of events, which I appreciate Oli being candid about. The pay-to-play question—companies paying for speaking slots and visibility—is something I’ve occasionally felt salty about. My rationalization: it’s like first class subsidizing coach. Someone gives a talk they might not have gotten on pure merit, but the alternative is higher ticket prices and fewer people attending. The trade-off is real, even if it doesn’t feel great when you’re on the asking end and the answer is “that’ll be twenty grand.”
The adaptation story is the part that stuck with me most. Oli tried to launch Adapt Unbound—flooding and sea level rise focused, set in Amsterdam, which is literally built to mitigate flooding. And it just... didn’t work. Not enough interest, not enough economic surplus to justify the event. He was baffled. I wasn’t, entirely. When I was doing the venture fellowship at Lichen, I looked at a bunch of adaptation deals and kept running into the same wall: the discount rate problem. You have cash now versus a theoretical risk at some indeterminate point in the future. The farther away the risk, the less that money is worth in net present value terms. Wildfire tech works because fire is a problem today. Sea level rise? Humans keep telling themselves they’ll deal with it later. A dollar now saves a hundred dollars ten years from now, and I’m not even sure that’s investible. It’s a depressing conclusion but I watched it kill deal after deal.
The conversation turned—as my conversations increasingly do—toward the question of whether this industry takes itself too seriously. I’ve been on a quiet campaign for more zaniness and more wellness in CDR, which sounds like a contradictory pairing but I think they’re actually the same impulse: stop performing seriousness for five minutes and see what happens. I pitched Oli on watercolor painting sessions at Unbound. I pitched communal salads and adaptogens instead of the obligatory networking drinks.
Oli mentioned The Drop in Malmö and Alt Carbon’s summit in India as events that are doing the culture-forward thing well. He’s clearly thinking about it. And he pointed out something I’ve noticed too: people in this industry secretly love the memes, secretly want to talk about the big existential stuff, but there’s a professional inhibition around being seen as not serious enough. I know you all want more memes. I know you all want to talk about real things. You don’t need to pretend you’re only one thing.
The episode ended where a lot of my conversations end lately—on the question of how you get from being a person who knows gratitude matters to being a person who actually lives it. I told Oli about getting genuinely frustrated at a coworking space because people preferred fluorescent lights over the nice lamps. Deeply spiritual person, me. Very well-adjusted. Working on it.
Full Transcript
Ross Kenyon: Hey, thank you so much for listening to Reversing Climate Change. I’m the host, Ross Kenyon. I’m a climate tech and carbon removal entrepreneur. Look, you know what to do if you like this show, and I really hope that you do. Open up your podcast app right now, give this show a full rating, which in many podcast apps is five stars. If you’re on an app like Apple Podcasts that uses reviews, a quick review would be super helpful. I just got one the other day and thank you, whoever you are out there listening, I really appreciate it.
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Today’s guest is Oli Katz, who is the founder and CEO of Unbound Summits. If you’re in carbon removal, you certainly know about Carbon Unbound. In fact, you’ve probably been to Carbon Unbound. I am really happy to have Oli here. I was just at Carbon Unbound in Vancouver. Had a wonderful time. I got to run a couple of small group workshops that I really enjoyed. I ended up getting tagged into moderating a panel, which was very fun.
And I am headed to New York next month to run some more panels that deal with some of the emotional work regarding working on climate and carbon removal. If you’re planning to come to Carbon Unbound in New York, I hope to see you there. It’s a wonderful event. And I actually have a discount code that Oli provided me. If you use the code “reversingclimatechange” all one word, you can get 10% off of your registration for Carbon Unbound.
Oli and I dig into some of the difficult economics of bringing people together in today’s world and how to create an event that is both intellectually stimulating and productive and brings the right people together. But also perhaps creates some space for us to steel ourselves, rejuvenate ourselves to continue this work. I’m really glad I was able to have Oli on. See you in New York. Thanks so much for listening. And here is the show.
Ross Kenyon: Oli, thank you for being here.
Oli Katz: No, thanks so much for the invitation.
Ross Kenyon: I’m really happy to have you. I regret not having the tape rolling because right before we started, I had described the Unbound team as being like steppe horsemen, a nation of people we didn’t know existed, swooped in and conquered everything. And Unbound is one of those companies, one of those groups that somehow just came into carbon removal and have so thoroughly owned one very specific segment of it.
As far as I’m concerned, Carbon Unbound is the main place that carbon removal professionals gather. Maybe there’s a couple others whose feelings might be hurt by my saying that, but it’s certainly top of mind for most of my peers. And I’m so curious how you can build such a successful in-person community given that so much of our lives are digital, travel’s expensive. These things are a big hassle, they’re disruptive, and yet you go and there’s critical mass of so many people, many of whom I describe as like a family reunion. I’m like, oh, getting to see what the other two-thirds of everyone’s body looks like. Isn’t this nice? Or like, people I haven’t seen in a year. This is great. But also getting to meet so many people that I haven’t yet met. It was a really wonderful experience. How do you build something like that and get people to do so many disruptive and expensive things to come to something in person?
Oli Katz: Yeah. Well, thank you. That’s a really kind intro. I think it’s a really easy crowd to get together and I feel like I come from a background of putting on events within sustainability and tech. I used to work on Future Food Tech summits, and the company also worked on agritech events as well. And there was quite a different sort of vibe when you compared those two industries. Agriculture was a lot older, more ingrained, and food tech was like the new kid on the block. And so there was a vibrancy. This was around the time when Impossible Foods and Beyond Meat was IPO-ing and it was a really exciting time. Lots of money flooding into the space.
But I feel like when we first put on our event in 2023, the very first Carbon Unbound, it felt like a similar sort of atmosphere when it comes to CDR people. The premise around new technology, not in it for financial gain—whilst obviously that is a component—people are really invested in the solutions and they really believe in the power of these. And so I think particularly when it comes to in-person events and getting that mix of people into the space, we always tend to find people who are really excited enough for it.
That being said, obviously it’s a tougher time at the moment and we have started to see, I wouldn’t say a pullback, but a maturing of the space. And so it’s really expensive to put these events on, and that’s obviously something that is really front of mind for us. If someone is paying this amount of money, and also putting a considerable investment in terms of time and opportunity cost to come to Carbon Unbound, what is the return on investment for them? It can’t just be a nice jolly get together. And so we spend a lot of time working with the industry to understand what the pain points are and how we can make the two days, three days that they are at Carbon Unbound the most valuable.
And I think that is ultimately what I have learned to be the most important thing to make a successful event: listen to the experts. We come with expertise in putting on events and making it seamless and very professional, but the content and the people that are in the room ultimately is what matters. And so by listening to the people who are going to be attending, our core market, the CDR market, it allows us to create programs and experiences that will ensure that it scales the industry and they can meet their partners. And it achieves the business and sustainability objectives that everyone’s after.
Ross Kenyon: And at least as an attendee, it felt like what you had heard for the Vancouver 2026 Carbon Unbound was that demand was feeling pretty thin. And your goal was to spend a lot of time hosting events that were matchmaking. I was not in that room. I was doing a venture fellowship at the time, so people would come up to me all the time and start pitching me. I’d be like, I’m looking at adaptation stuff, please save yourself the trouble. Don’t break your own heart. I don’t think I can help you, probably. But there were a lot of people who were interested in buying credits and a fair number of investors there too that were looking for deals to be sourced. And part of what you were trying to do is speed dating—connect people really quickly, see where there’s fits that hadn’t been previously discovered. And that was my read of it. How close to the truth am I?
Oli Katz: Yeah, pretty close. I’d say that’s becoming a core component of our events—bringing together the buy and the supply side and matchmaking. So whether that’s earlier stage companies who want to raise money in order to scale their solution, or more mature companies, or anyone in between who are looking to meet with prospective buyers. That demand signal is so important, particularly at the stage we’re at with this industry.
We’re starting to see, and I’m not sure if you’ve experienced this or you’ve spoken with anyone else, but it’s definitely becoming a bit more competitive, and there are more entrants emerging into the space. But obviously then due to political headwinds and economic factors, it’s changing the dynamic. There are new different buyers as well that are coming out. You have the tier one corporates, the Googles and the Microsofts of the world. But then you equally have philanthropic organizations like Terraset. And you have Altitude as well, which is coming out of Switzerland—Benjamin Schultz, who’s obviously skyrocketed in terms of the amount of purchases that they’re making, which is a different sort of financing vehicle for CDR.
So I think you’re starting to see lots of different ways where demand is being stimulated. But I think where we’re still not there yet is that tier one corporate buyer, which is what a lot of people are still really looking for. And I don’t think we’re seeing enough private companies come into the space and purchase CDR, and I think that’s felt kind of universally.
Ross Kenyon: Is this a pitch you’re going to be making for the New York Carbon Unbound in May? Is it also going to be trying to convince people of the relative merits of attending versus something else they could be doing? Come, we have the buyers. They’re ready to hear you. Or is it some other problem that you’re solving? What do you think it is?
Oli Katz: I think there’s that aspect, but I don’t think you can overlook the other partnerships and conversations that are happening outside of just the demand and supply. So you have lots of intermediaries, you have suppliers and other companies who want to meet and network and do business and help each other grow. And so that’s a really core part of our audience as well.
So we basically want to continue to be the go-to event for the CDR space. And that basically means that we need to cater for everyone in the industry. So we’re constantly thinking about new ways of introducing people to one another, whether that be the speed dating like you mentioned, or pre-summit workshops, or just the main event networking drinks. All really helps in bringing vibrancy. And I think sometimes—you’ve probably been to events before—it’s not even so much maybe the programmed networking. It’s sometimes like you just bump into someone when you’re having a coffee and you’re like, oh, this is someone who actually could really help me out or I could get advice from. So it’s those experiences as well that are going to make the difference.
Ross Kenyon: Yes. And I was trying to think of a way to say this that doesn’t sound inherently insulting to an event organizer. I think I spend most of my time in the hallway speaking with people. I very rarely am in the main stage room. This is true of conferences I attend generally. A lot of the value is just from people either I’m already connected with and I have a chance to get to know them better, or I’ll have ideas. Most of my time spent in Vancouver with you all was like, oh, I know exactly who you should meet. I was just talking to them, let me pull you over here. And I think I did that 50 times—that’s probably exaggerating a little bit, but there’s a lot of that that happens. That’s super valuable.
And one of the potential criticisms I hear of events that regather the same industry over and over again is, well, it’s going to be the same people having the same conversation over and over again. How do you produce an event that doesn’t have people thinking that, feeling that, anticipating that? Is there some sort of strategy? Is there some way to break out of it, or is it just inherent to a smallish industry with recurring concerns that are the same as they’ve been for several years at this point?
Oli Katz: Yeah, I’m constantly surprised because I always feel like, oh, we’ve found everyone in the industry, but actually we have around 50% new attendees and entrants at every event. Which is kind of crazy. And it sometimes doesn’t feel like it, right? Because you look at the attendee lists and you go, oh, I know them, know them, know them, but it tends to be different people from different organizations and things like that.
So we really make a concerted effort to bring new people into the space as much as we do about taking care of previous attendees and the people that have been in the industry for a long time. And so I think that’s partly our objective as well, and part of our value as an events organizer—to try to introduce new people into the event, to make a really strong networking mix where you see the people that you want to see and it’s a bit of a reunion, but then you are also introduced to new players or thinkers that stimulate further thought or partnership or business opportunity.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah. I kept running into old friends. I’d just be like, get away from me. I already know you. We talk all the time. It’s fine. Don’t need to keep talking to you. It’s okay. Let’s go meet someone new. But I also feel like that is valuable too. I think this line of work is really difficult. Pulling an invisible gas out and doing something meaningful with it is hard. And one thing I keep coming back to is just how difficult it is to have to project strength in an environment that demands it so that you look like you’re a robust company that will survive whatever political headwinds or energy input cost difficulties that are coming or will soon arrive.
There’s not always a lot of room to do things that are some of the softer emotional work of just being like, yeah, this work is really challenging. And I think there’s something about it where—I don’t know if this is going to connect with you or not—but it’s like if you do telehealth with a therapist versus being in the room, I feel like there is just something inherently better about being in the room with someone when you’re talking about the real stuff. And it’s hard to articulate why it’s better, but I feel like it is, and I at least perceive it that way. Maybe not everyone agrees with that. But I think that is its own value, even if it is only emotional solace for the people working in the industry. It is good to meet your fellows and that is plenty of value.
Oli Katz: Yeah, I mean, we are humans, right? And we are very social creatures and I don’t think anything will replace in person or being with someone in a room. I think you are seeing that when it comes to mental health and the more screen time you have, typically the more it affects your mood and connection to other humans. And so out of interest, when you go to events, do people tend to open up more as a result of just being with them, or do you feel like you also get that virtually? You do a lot of these podcasts, so you probably end up getting a lot of people talking about their problems on here as well.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, that definitely does happen, but I feel like that realness can be generated more quickly in person. I feel like you’re better able to sense if a person is trustworthy or someone that you want to engage with on that level. That’s not to say that this doesn’t happen digitally—it often does as well, some of which ends up on the podcast. But yeah, there’s a bunch of people that I met where we’d known each other or been acquaintances, but after hanging out at Carbon Unbound we’re friends. People were able to be like, yes, this part was really difficult, or I had this really difficult relationship in business and I’m still working through this with a former co-founder or something like that.
The reason I went to Vancouver was to run those campfire sessions that were on this topic too, about founder grief and some of the difficulty of just—this work is hard and a lot of the hard parts you have to conceal a little bit to make sure you look like a resilient company that is not suffering, even though a lot of people who do the work, it takes a toll. And having an off-the-books kind of session like that, I think the people who attended were like, wow, it was really nice to be able to just—Chatham House rules. We’re not going to name who was there or anything, but we were able to connect on that level. I don’t think doing that digitally would’ve been very successful. I don’t think I would’ve enjoyed it as much or connected as strongly had it been that. So the TLDR, yeah, I think it’s much improved.
Oli Katz: Nice. You’re becoming a CDR therapist?
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, I think part of it’s because for a long time I was pretty emotionally closed off to a lot of this stuff. And then the longer I’ve coached companies or worked with companies, realizing how many of these problems are emotional, spiritual, psychological, and not merely about how you make the right business decision. Often those things are all tied up together. Which makes me gooier than maybe I ever thought that I was. But it is nice that people do connect with it. I’m also really looking forward to doing something similar in New York too. And if you’re listening and you want to come hang and do that, you should totally come to Carbon Unbound, come to my funky little campfire where we can talk about our feelings about doing this work.
Oli Katz: I’d fairly support that. That’s nice. I think that’s an example of where, in other industries maybe it’s just all about business, but we tend to have a number of people—and potentially most of the audience—who are very open, very collaborative, very honest, very real. And I think that creates an amazing environment, especially in person. And I think that has really helped to continue to give Carbon Unbound the feel that it has.
Ross Kenyon: Without a doubt. I also just don’t think that there are very many people engaged in carbon dioxide removal who are not here for the right reasons. They would be kind of foolish if they thought this was an easy way to make a buck. Because it’s truly not.
Oli Katz: It definitely isn’t.
Ross Kenyon: But I do feel like people want to make sure that their work has an impact. And then also watching the world move away from climate action, at least by certain metrics, can feel really discouraging. You’re like, we were barely going to make it before we had a bunch of backsliding and changes and focus as a world. And now it’s just like, what is happening and how do I have a business that survives? And this work is stressful even when policy is behind you and you’re just trying to deliver on a contract. And that alone is really hard. People think that getting the offtake is hard, but delivering on the offtake is maybe an extra order of magnitude harder—or a different kind of hard, maybe we’ll say.
Oli Katz: Yeah, I completely agree with that. And I think it’s a really difficult, especially when it’s—I mean it shouldn’t be polarizing at all, but it kind of feels like it still is, which is mental. There’s lots of industries where you don’t get those sort of political headwinds. But it almost feels like it can either be a massive pillar to a government or a country’s vision of the future, or it can be something that they deeply disagree with and ultimately despise.
And so that is just an added complexity that I think everyone in the industry faces, particularly now. And I think I’m still incredibly optimistic because I do think that sensibility always prevails. And it’s got to the point, in my opinion, where it’s a business priority. So whether or not there is a particular entity in place who is supportive or not, we are still seeing in the background, whether large companies or people are kind of signposting, they’re doing it. They’re still going along with it because they know that one, it’s the right thing to do, and two, it’s a business imperative in order to ensure that we as humans survive in the best way possible and their business thrives.
Ross Kenyon: Oof. I love when people are saying things like this to me recently because I’ve been so dour. In fact, when I was at Carbon Unbound—did you watch Arrested Development at all, or was that too American for you?
Oli Katz: I don’t. No. What is that?
Ross Kenyon: Oh, it was just a very millennial comedy. Oh, I feel old saying something like that. And they just keep finding themselves laughing at the most tragic stuff ever. And whenever I would run into Chantal at Carbon Unbound, I would start—I’m a pretty ebullient kind of guy. I like being optimistic. And whatever conversation I would have with her would always turn into just me being like, AI is freaking me out. Or like, how about some of the stuff going on with NATO in Greenland? And like, how about this? I’m just like, I swear, Chantal, I’m like a totally cool, really normal person here.
But yes, this work is difficult and it is nice to have someone back you up. That what we’re seeing now, maybe eddies, and the main current of the river is still going in the right direction. And to not get distracted. I don’t know if I fully believe it, but I want to. I want to. And it’s nice to just have you sedate me a little bit or try to be like, you know, don’t overdo it.
Oli Katz: Yeah. Well, I mean, if you don’t laugh, you cry. Right? That’s basically the motto. But I think also what’s been going on is we’re over-reliant on certain countries or resources in the world. And outside of CDR, if we move away from those and countries kind of embrace more localized energy and more localized solutions where countries can support themselves in a better way, I think that’s going to be a massive benefit—and not even just environmentally, economically. And I think AI is going to really help with that. Obviously there’s a lot of question marks around the regulation, but we’re seeing some really great strides there. So I am a big optimist, and that’s probably why I’ve ended up starting a company. Because I don’t think you can be a pessimist and do that.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah. It’d be a much less durable experience if you were too pessimistic. Well, give me an example of how you try to keep things fresh here. Is it just in the programming? Is it in terms of sub-events within the event? How do you do it in a way that when companies are on the margin of “we’re not sure if it’s worth attending this year,” how do you make sure you’re giving them new value each time?
Oli Katz: Yeah. I think people tend to come for one of two reasons, which is either the content or the networking. And I think both of them ultimately play into someone coming to the event. But it’s normally like you are sitting in the main stage room for a number of hours and you’re just absorbing what’s going on on stage and you love the facts and the insights, or you’re outside in the corridors bumping into people, pulling people in. And so I think those two factors, alongside always choosing really upmarket venues and cities and locations that people really want to go to—so we moved to Vancouver for the first time this year. And then I heard that there was a CDR ski trip that took place afterwards.
Ross Kenyon: I’m on that, but I couldn’t make it work.
Oli Katz: Yeah, neither could I. I’m gutted because I’m an avid skier. It’s so expensive in Whistler though. But maybe we’ll look at doing that again next year. But yeah, it’s all of the above really. It’s making sure there’s a good audience mix, making sure that the content is created with the industry, and then choosing great locations that people ultimately want to travel to and potentially will spend a couple of days either traveling or seeing friends and family. I think that’s the mix that we strive for, on top of obviously exceptional service and making it as seamless as possible for people to attend.
Ross Kenyon: I have a funny story, but I don’t know if I can keep it in the show if I share it.
Oli Katz: You can always edit that out.
Ross Kenyon: I’ll just say a safe version. I got tapped on the shoulder to moderate the AI and CDR panel because I guess the moderator couldn’t make it or something. I was there and I was looking out over the audience and I saw a scientist I have long admired and known for a very long time just open-mouth snoring in the back. So also, there’s some good napping potentially available in the main hall if you need a little doze. It’s dark in the audience. I was like, I have to talk to you later. How dare you do that.
Oli Katz: Yeah. Oh, really? No, I think it’s exhausting as well, right? Going to events. Having to travel. We’ve had people travel on the day from Japan and then just get through the day and go to networking drinks and stuff, and I just can’t see how people do it. Some people just come in and out, two days and then they’re on another plane again to another time zone. Some people’s lives revolve around traveling. So sometimes you do get the odd napper. We’ve got to leave them in peace.
Ross Kenyon: Odd napper. Yes. One question I have, and I’ve occasionally felt salty about this in the past: I know that there’s a large portion of the economics of events, especially industrial events, that has this pay-to-play element to it where people get increased visibility and stage time, and maybe they get asked to moderate or speak on panels that they otherwise would not be asked to because of it.
But I tend to think of it—this is me trying to rationalize in my head—it’s almost like people who fly first class subsidize the people in coach to be able to go. And you’re like, all right, so someone gives a speech and maybe they wouldn’t have gotten it on its own merits, but the alternative is maybe on net fewer people attend because the price goes up if we’re only letting people speak based on the merits. And that’s how I justify it in my head. But there have been times where especially when I’ve been at companies, we’d be like, we should go to this, is there any way we can speak? And they’ll be like, oh yes, it’s twenty grand for this. And you’re like, wow. That’s how it is, huh? That doesn’t feel very good sometimes. What’s it like having to balance making the economics work for your company and you personally, and also having a sense of fairness for an industry that cares about the climate? How are we supposed to make sense of the economics of events?
Oli Katz: Yeah, it’s a really difficult one, to be quite frank with you. And we do get people who are unhappy sometimes because we have to turn them away to then service sponsorship opportunities. Ultimately what it comes down to is making sure that the event is commercially feasible. And as I said, it’s incredibly expensive to put on these events and people only see the two days, but basically six months goes into this with a team of 12 now to program these. And so there’s a lot of cost involved.
And also, we don’t—it’s not a pay-to-play model in that sense. It’s always, we invite people based upon merit, who come through our research process or who are recommended by certain members of our advisory board. But there are also companies that want a little bit of additional exposure and branding and want to do something more than just a campfire session or speaking or attendance. And that’s obviously additional resource for the team, but they, as you said, also really help in ensuring that these events continue to run, continue to grow, and we continue to put more effort and emphasis into it.
And so we work really closely with our partners to make sure that we deliver that value. And we also ensure that if people are coming back time and time again to inquire about speaking, that they receive replies, they receive explanations. And we really do try our best to accommodate as many people as possible.
Ross Kenyon: Why did the economics of a carbon removal event make sense, but the economics of an adaptation event do not?
Oli Katz: It’s a massive frustration, I think, from my standpoint. And I think it comes down to one, maybe a slight lack of funding in the adaptation space. And two, a different sort of dynamic when it comes to the industry. It feels like it’s less about the private sector and more about public sector. And so to be completely transparent, we haven’t had as much experience in building public sector events. We very much focus on private sector. And so when trying to make the Adapt Unbound series work, we focused on that sort of core audience. But I think it’s still a very nascent industry. It’s growing and there’s lots of residual solutions.
And you see it in carbon removal as well. There are carbon removal suppliers like Master Reforestation who focus on wildfire-hit areas and so they have an adaptation focus. There is a really good event—I’d be really keen—I think there’s a couple actually in the US who have done it quite well. One is Red Sky Summit.
Ross Kenyon: Good name.
Oli Katz: Yeah, really good name. And they focused on wildfire tech in California. I think Convective Capital is the organizer.
Ross Kenyon: They do oven and cooking technology, right?
Oli Katz: Yeah, exactly. But they do a really great event and now they’ve broadened their mandate into adaptation. And so I think they focused on a specific niche and that was obviously great locally when it comes to California, and now they’re expanding that. So we fully support it. I don’t think it’s impossible to make work. I think the economics could work. We just ended up not being able to capture the audience in the best way.
And it then comes down to: we’re splitting our time between these two areas. We really think that we can make even more of a difference in CDR. And so we’ve paused that series for the time being, but I’m still incredibly passionate about it and really want to get back into it. So if you have any ideas, even if it’s like a small gathering or workshop—I was thinking about this because we still have people coming and inquiring, “are you putting it on?” And that’s another massive founder’s dilemma: there’s so many ideas and opportunities out there and you have to ultimately prioritize with the resources you have. And that’s been quite frustrating for me.
Ross Kenyon: When I was doing the venture fellowship at Lichen Ventures, a good chunk of last year, I was looking at a bunch of adaptation and resilience deals. This is not new insight—this is maybe the first question you should ask with anything adaptation related. But the chief problem was one about the discount rate and net present value. You have cash on hand now, you can pay cash. You literally have now against a theoretical risk at some indeterminate point in the future. And the farther away the risk is, the less that money is worth given how net present value works. So you’re just like, how do you not face that problem?
You can make it individual at the consumer level, or you can sell into a problem that already exists. Like, how do you make sure that utility lines that are causing fires get noticed much more quickly? That’s a problem with a really specific buyer that they’ll pay money today for a problem that exists today. But so much of the adaptation stuff is against future risks that I think—humans getting faster and faster, less and less patient, less and less intergenerational in how we think—I feel like a lot of those deals are just dead on arrival. Even if they are a dollar now saves a hundred dollars ten years from now. I don’t even know if that’s investible. Because of that. And I had to winnow a bunch of deals out. I’m like, this is great. This would be awesome. But humanity is going to render this commercially unviable.
Do you face a similar kind of thing? Like wildfire makes sense because that’s a problem of adaptation today, but something like sea level rise—we’re going to do it in Amsterdam, we’re going to have to expand the system and this tech around the world—people are like, ah, we’re going to deal with that later. Like, we’ve got more pressing problems, energy costs are going up. Is that what it is?
Oli Katz: Yeah, to be honest, I really don’t know. Maybe it was the fact that we didn’t spend enough time building the audience. It was really interesting though, because obviously we wanted to take it to Europe. We had some strong signals from people who attended the US event saying bring it to Europe. We thought that focusing on a niche—flooding and sea level rise and water essentially—and Amsterdam and the Netherlands are one of the wettest countries in Europe and obviously face a lot of flooding. Amsterdam’s built in a really interesting way where it mitigates flooding risk and they’ve deployed lots of amazing technologies there.
I was just quite baffled at the lack of interest and response when it came to that event. And again, I would really love to dig a bit deeper. I think we’re going to take a step back, maybe do a couple of webinars or something like that where we start to really understand what the value is. Because we don’t want to be putting on events that people don’t see value in. That just doesn’t work out for anyone. So back to the drawing board on that one, but I’m sure there are lots of people who are able to do that well.
Ross Kenyon: Maybe it’s just something that as we get closer to the biting point of the net present value, it becomes more viable. What’s it like as a leader to have to cancel an event like that? Do you have a go/no-go moment where you’re like, we don’t have enough support, we’ve got to stop and cut our losses? How do you do that? How does it feel to do that?
Oli Katz: Oh yeah, it feels awful, to be honest. It’s like your baby and something that the team has put so much time and effort into. And I feel very responsible when it comes to making decisions for the company because it affects a lot of people. You get people bought in, they put a lot of effort into it. Obviously from a financial perspective it’s very difficult as well. So all of those factors—the rejection, having to stop something that you really believe in, potential financial implications. It’s just a really, really hard decision.
But I think there comes a point when you just know that it’s just not working out and the longer that you push forward, the harder it’s going to be to end. The worse the outcome in a way. And as I said, the opportunity cost of focusing on something versus focusing on where we are seeing value being created and people really enjoying the product. I think you just end up having to make a very, very hard decision. Yeah, it’s almost impossible though, I would say.
Ross Kenyon: Doesn’t sound fun at all.
Oli Katz: Have you ever had to cancel a project or do something like that yourself?
Ross Kenyon: Had to cancel my own company, I guess.
Oli Katz: Oh, of course, yes. Yeah. Wow. I mean, that must have been—yeah. Sorry, I completely forgot about that. Poking the open wound.
Ross Kenyon: No, no—
Oli Katz: But yeah—
Ross Kenyon: But I’m sure you probably learned a lot during that too, and you’re like, okay, how did we get this deep when we had to do it, and hopefully you lost the minimum and came to a decision point early enough where you were able to make a change. I think a lot of people maybe have a “damn the torpedoes” approach at some point too. And they’re like, well, we’re in this deep. Sunk costs. Let’s just see what happens. We’re going to get more sponsors. It’ll work itself out. And then instead of a five- or low-six-figure loss, you start looking at a deeper six- or seven-figure loss. Do you have investors too? I imagine you probably do.
Oli Katz: No, we don’t actually.
Ross Kenyon: Wow. It’s all revenue-supported? That is—
Oli Katz: Yeah. I think when it comes to events, we’re not building a futuristic product or a software or something that needs a lot of capital. And so you can manage the cash flow side of things with a bit of creativity. Definitely. And there’s been lots of times—I think with any company—where you’re kind of holding your breath a bit. But yeah, we’ve managed to continue without investment so far. And I think there are certain businesses and models where that’s possible, and others where I just don’t think it’s possible at all.
Ross Kenyon: And right now there are three Carbon Unbounds for CDR, right? Europe, West Coast and East Coast of the US?
Oli Katz: Yeah. West Coast, East Coast, and then Europe.
Ross Kenyon: Is that the plan to continue that for the foreseeable future? Is that going to take place next year too?
Oli Katz: Yes. Yeah, those are the three anchor events. And then, as I alluded to, looking at other locations when we feel like we’re able to service those and have the resource. But yeah, I really want to take it to lots of other places. I think almost any location, there’s an amazing opportunity for CDR—Africa, the Middle East, South America, Asia. You kind of name it. And basically within every country you could have a smaller localized event.
And I’m sure there are, I’m aware of quite a few other events that are going on servicing different regions. But yeah, I love traveling as well. I love exploring new cultures and new countries. And so that’s been a big motivating factor outside of obviously supporting CDR and the events themselves—the opportunity to be able to travel with the work. Which I think is really exciting and motivates me outside of anything else.
Ross Kenyon: It’s hard to hear a British person say that without picturing you in a pith helmet with little khaki shorts on. Sorry. Now I’ve got to bleach that out of my—
Oli Katz: Yeah, both of us do.
Ross Kenyon: Okay. So are there going to be more? Are you going to do something in Asia? I’m seeing a lot of cool stuff happen over there, think pretty much everyone is. And Kenya obviously very famous as a hotspot. Does it make sense? I mean, even if there is enough critical mass of organizations in a certain place, I imagine you also have to judge how much economic surplus will be generated for the Unbound summits to make it worth it. Because otherwise you could focus on something that you know is going to get enough sponsorship and attendance. So it has to be of sufficient size and density for this to make sense for you. So are there other places that may surpass that limit, or not yet?
Oli Katz: TBC, watch the space. Nothing set in stone yet. I think there’s a couple of locations that we’re exploring in a bigger way. I definitely think we still would like to continue to grow the events that we are hosting and we definitely haven’t got to the peak there yet. But yeah, I think within the next couple of years you’ll definitely see another Carbon Unbound pop up somewhere else in the world. Do you have any locations that you would love to see us go to?
Ross Kenyon: I don’t know, because there is—what is it, Decarb Japan? What is the one that happened last year?
Oli Katz: Oh yeah. Is it Decarb or—I can’t—
Ross Kenyon: I can’t remember. I think it’s Decarb Japan. I didn’t go. I heard really good things about it.
Oli Katz: Yeah. So did I.
Ross Kenyon: I heard there was a lot of fun, karaoke actually. That is one thing I wanted to ask about. Carbon removal has a little bit of a self-serious vibe. It’s one of the reasons why the podcast and the memes—and I think people really relate to them too. All of the shows that I do that have emotional, theological content to them, a lot of them don’t perform as well as the things that have immediate instrumental value. But people message me more often. So it appeals to fewer people, but the people to whom it appeals, they really connect with it. And the memes too. People will often be like, are you behind the memes? I’m always like, yeah, there’s a group of us. But they’re like, I love those. We always share them.
But there’s always a more of a quietness to sharing that because it might look like the company’s not as serious. And one idea I had for Unbound that might take it in a new direction is like, how do we bring some of the silliness out? I like the emotionality of it, but I also think some amount of taking ourselves a little bit less seriously—I think getting a little loose and doing karaoke or something, just straight silly. I think that could be good. It could be a terrible idea as well.
Oli Katz: Yeah. Have you seen, I know the AirMiners have done a couple of events. I think Tito brings the energy and excitement in that sort of way. Which is a lot of fun. And I think one of their events, they actually got—it was like a rap where you basically rap about CDR, and it’s incredibly—I’d say, I don’t want to say nerdy in terms of how it comes across, but I love it. I think it’s amazing. It’s really creative. And is that a similar sort of thing to what you’re going for? Just taking the edge off a bit?
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, I think that. Or it doesn’t have to be goofy per se, but I think something like—if you had someone who could just have us paint watercolors for an hour and just, because oftentimes you’ll sit next to someone and those conversations will be less performative and more like—when your rational brain is occupied with that, some of the more natural—I feel like some of those things, it’s hard to articulate a value to that. I think a lot of people in our industry who are a bit more STEM-oriented and a bit more serious might not see it. But I swear to you, people respond.
All the stuff I do that ends up on the less—for instance, a show that I did recently that a lot of people really liked and did good numbers was the one I did about A Healthier Earth, about private equity owning the data center company, and then owning A Healthier Earth and integrating biochar into data centers and private equity. And that had a lot of value because a lot of people listened and were like, oh, our ticket sizes are too small. We should be thinking a lot bigger. How can we do this? People like that and it does well. But also those quieter ones that I do, I get secret messages about them.
They feel to me more like they’re trying to provide value in that first category, which Unbound is very good at. Is there room to grow into that second category? And how do you do it in a non-cringe way? Because there is a risk of being cringe whenever you are doing something that doesn’t have immediate obvious value.
Oli Katz: I agree. I think a couple of events that do it really well—and maybe I’m shooting myself in the foot by recommending other events, but we’re all friends.
Ross Kenyon: Confidence.
Oli Katz: The Drop, which is in Europe—
Ross Kenyon: The Malmö one, right?
Oli Katz: Yeah. Really. I love the branding. I think it’s super cool. I’m a big fan. They do some really interesting, more quirky networking pieces. I haven’t been myself, but it looks more towards that sort of side. And then Old Carbon, they do their annual summit in India—
Ross Kenyon: Like the Darjeeling tea.
Oli Katz: Yeah. And I think again, the pictures are amazing. Absolutely love their brand. And I think it looks like pairing it with the culture of where they’re located and some really interesting and unique settings and experiences. It’s definitely something that I’m really keen on exploring for Carbon Unbound. Yeah, I think we potentially have some ideas for that.
But yeah, that’s got me thinking actually, so thank you. If there’s anything in particular that you’d love to see—maybe like—I’m trying to think. I’ve also seen starting the day with, again maybe a little bit more serious, but on a meditation side of things or yoga to start the day. So you kind of come in and you’re stretched and your mind’s feeling a little bit more empty and less about thinking about the news and the day. Things like that I think can be really helpful and productive as you go into an event as well.
Ross Kenyon: Yes. I always want to find ways to do more of that stuff. And the examples you and I both gave are good ones. There’s something—I enjoy alcohol to some extent and drink some, but also try not to because it makes you feel bad. It messes up sleep. There’s some part of adulthood where you’re like, does everything need to be alcohol-related? Does everything just—late night, you feel bad the next day. What if we did something? What if we all ate salads and had adaptogens instead of having constant booze input at every conference you go to?
I got a migraine at Carbon Unbound this year too. I pushed it too hard. I think I spoke for 13 or 14 hours a day. Not surprising given how this podcast has gone—I tend to gab a little bit. But I was just like, oh, I think I just wore myself out hanging with everyone. Having so much fun. But yeah, a lot of that is also alcohol and staying up late. How do you be social and encourage people to let loose without it being dependent upon something that maybe doesn’t make us feel that good?
Oli Katz: Yeah, it’s an interesting one. I think the younger generations—and even in my generation—I’m starting to see lots of friends just not drink. We had a Christmas get-together with some friends last year and no one drank. And that was just kind of—it was weird, right? But it’s great and I fully support it. But it’s so amazing, particularly in Western society, how ingrained alcohol is. Basically anything you do with friends revolves around having a drink.
And so yeah, it’d be interesting to see maybe some of the stats from our catering, like how many people are consuming non-alcoholic drinks. We’ve got a really—I mean this is slightly different because it’s actually in the morning. So you probably expect people not to be drinking by then. You’d hope not. But we are going to be serving some CDR coffee and chocolates and things like that that—so we’re trying to integrate more of those experiences into the events to bring some life to it. So definitely come to the East Coast event if you are into your coffee and chocolate, because there’ll be a lot there on the morning of day one.
Ross Kenyon: This podcast has just become me trying to become a consultant to Unbound or something. How much do you charge? No, I really do love being there. And I like that these events don’t just magically appear without huge amounts of labor and investment going into making them really nice and ideally worth the value of attending. That’s a hard equation to figure out. And I feel like I’ve enjoyed my time going to Unbound. I would like to go to many more and keep going.
Oli Katz: Oh, you’re always invited.
Ross Kenyon: Always invited. Yeah. I think it’s really wonderful. And also, I’m happy to keep pitching you my—I guess all my ideas are basically either increased zaniness or increased wellness. I think those are probably the two biggest themes here. But I would like to see our nerdy little industry loosen up a bit and stop having to be so serious. Because I know you all secretly love the memes. I know you all secretly want to talk about real big stuff on the podcast. More memes. I know. I know. It’s there. More memes. I know. People, you don’t need to pretend that you’re only one thing. You can be a really serious scientist or business person and also love to laugh at some really absurd stuff.
Oli Katz: Yeah, I definitely catch myself out sometimes as well, trying to be—I definitely sometimes feel like I’m coming across too serious. Sometimes being able to loosen up and just forget all of the small or large problems that you’re currently facing. And also taking a step back and being like, we are doing pretty well. Whether it’s from a company perspective, from yourself, or as an industry—it’s very easy year on year, month on month, to look at where you were just a couple of days ago and be like, we are not growing fast enough, or we’re not doing enough, or we’re not getting enough buyers in the space.
But literally if you compare where we’re at now to two years ago, it’s something that should be celebrated. And sometimes, like you said, those moments where people come out of their shell a bit and are less serious—the nitty-gritty sometimes is where great ideas come together and some lifelong friendships are made. And I think that’s ultimately part and parcel with what we want to build here.
Ross Kenyon: For sure. I think those are all really good things to keep in mind. And I also think it’s good to not be so hard on yourself either when you show up in that way. I can do a podcast here talking about silliness and humor and emotions and stuff. But yesterday I was at the coworking space and in the silent zone they have overhead fluorescent lights, and then every desk has these beautiful lamp lights that make the room so cozy. And I got there a little bit later than everyone else. I’m like, do you guys mind if I turn off the overhead so we can have the really nice lighting? And everyone’s like, I actually prefer more light and I want the overhead. And I was so frustrated with them.
I’m like, yeah, I’m a deeply spiritual person, I guess. I’m so mature, well-adjusted. I’m so annoyed about an aesthetic preference that diverges from mine. So yeah, I think you can run your mouth about how well-adjusted you are and how gratitude is important to you, but it is really hard to operationalize that on a regular basis. I’m not even close to being there.
Oli Katz: Yeah. I think it’s a constant battle. Some people will just have it, they’re just more inclined that way. And others are a bit more reserved or serious. So loosen up, I guess. Note to self.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah. I know how to get there. My goal over time is to be one of those older people where you’re like, wow, you’re exactly where you’re supposed to be. Not trying to be anywhere else. Totally contented. How do you get from this to that? I think that’s the life’s mission. But still working on it. Maybe you too. There’s time for us, I think.
Oli Katz: I think there is. Yeah.
Ross Kenyon: Thanks for being on, Oli. Appreciate you answering so many pretty difficult questions about how events work in our industry. And thanks for doing what you do. I think Unbound—I’m not just saying it either. I don’t invite people on to just blow smoke and flatter them. But I do think Unbound is a really important part of the ecosystem. And I’m glad I get to come and hang with you and so many of our colleagues. So thank you for doing the hard work of making it a real thing.
Oli Katz: I really appreciate it. Thank you for having me on. And I guess a final note: we just need more people in CDR. We also need as much diversity and we need to support other communities and countries and areas that maybe don’t have the privilege that the US or the UK has. And so making sure that we bring as many of those people into the sphere of CDR as possible to make this work. So that’s our goal. And yeah, again, really appreciate having me on.
Thanks so much for having me Ross! Really enjoyed the convo - and love the podcast. Big fan.