Episode 123 of the Reversing Climate Change podcast. You can listen on Spotify (subscribe there for ad-free), Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you listen. Paid subscribers get the ad-free version right here on the page.
Alexsandra Guerra and I talk to Sanchali Pal, founder and chief executive of Joro, an app for tracking and cutting a personal footprint. The partnership is the news; the interesting part is the handoff, because measuring your own emissions and then doing something about the remainder are two problems that had almost no connective tissue between them in 2020.
Sanchali Pal is the Founder and CEO of Joro, an app designed to mobilize climate action. On this bonus episode of Reversing Climate Change, Sanchali joins Ross and Alexsandra to explain how Joro allows users to track their carbon footprint (by way of credit card data) and take collective action to reduce emissions through behavior change, and how Nori and Joro are working together.
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Full Transcript
Ross Kenyon: Hey, everyone. Welcome to Season 2 of Reversing Climate Change. [Nori promotion cut from the transcript. It’s still in the audio, but it no longer applies.] And thank you so much for listening to another season of Reversing Climate Change. Hello and welcome to the Reversing Climate Change podcast. I'm Ross Kenyon. I am joined today by my colleague at Nori, Alexsandra Guerra. Thanks for being here, Alexsandra.
Alexsandra Guerra: Thanks, Ross.
Ross Kenyon: We are doing a relatively internal episode today because we have an exciting announcement and also a guest from a company that we have long wanted to have on the podcast. And then we started working together more closely and then this fell into place. So Alexsandra, I will leave that to you to introduce our guest.
Alexsandra Guerra: Sure. Our guest is Sanchali Pal, founder and CEO of Joro. Hi, Sanchali.
Sanchali Pal: Hey, great to be here.
Alexsandra Guerra: So good to have you here. So we're kind of announcing in this bonus episode that Nori and Joro are partnering to chat some cool stuff. Can you tell our listeners a little bit, Sanchali, what is Joro?
Sanchali Pal: So Joro is an app that helps people take climate action. We make it easy for anyone to start tracking and improving their personal carbon footprint and join others to make big change in reducing emissions through behavior change and purchasing offsets.
Alexsandra Guerra: So it's an app. And how exactly do you estimate carbon footprints of people?
Sanchali Pal: So one of the most annoying things about existing carbon footprint tools and what got me motivated to work on building Joro is that they rely on a ton of manual input because energy is a part of everything we do from the food we eat to what we use to power our homes. What Joro does is we allow users to connect their credit cards as an automated input to estimate their carbon footprint. So you can use manual input if you like or you can take an easier route and connect your credit card to get an automated picture of the carbon you're using on a daily basis from your consumption.
Alexsandra Guerra: And then what are some of those behavioral changes you mentioned that you offer to your users?
Sanchali Pal: So there's lots of low-hanging fruit. This is something that I learned in my own journey too as I started researching. There's a lot of things in my life that I didn't even realize were driving my carbon footprint. So I didn't realize that the meat that I was eating was actually a significant enough part of my carbon footprint that changing how I ate would reduce my carbon footprint and I wasn't the kind of person who was ready to go from normal meat eating to becoming a vegan, but I could cut down my meat consumption to one or two meals a week. And by doing that, I took the equivalent of half a car off the road every year from an emission standpoint.
So that's one example. But there's lots of other things. And what's interesting is everyone's carbon footprint is different. It's kind of like your fingerprint. Some people it's driven by the
Ross Kenyon: Back up one second with what you said before that about connecting to credit cards. So you're able to have the amount that you spent on your credit card and then somehow you're able to track how much those purchases might actually be generating carbon dioxide or greenhouse gases. There's some sort of estimate for that.
Sanchali Pal: Exactly. So that's what we produce is this estimate that converts dollars to kilograms or pounds of CO2. So for instance, if you spend $20 at the gas station and we know you live in a certain zip code, we can give you an estimate of the carbon dioxide associated with that gasoline purchase. We can also do it for more complicated purchases at a lower level of resolution. If you spend, say, $100 at Whole Foods and we know from your profile that you're a vegetarian, we can give you an estimate of what a vegetarian's $100 on groceries would have as a carbon footprint, even if we don't know exactly the items in that cart.
And our goal is to really drive decision making and help users identify the biggest drivers of their carbon footprint that if they decided to change them would make a big impact.
Ross Kenyon: That is very cool. So if I spend $100 at Amazon, do you just assume this was probably made in China, it was probably shipped in a slow boat, got here, and then you have metrics for once it gets here and then you just compile all that for me automatically?
Sanchali Pal: Yeah. And there's ways too that users... So we'll assume, say you've spent $100 at Amazon. That's a great example of a purchase that we don't have a high resolution of information on. We might make an estimate based on the average basket of goods that we're seeing and the carbon footprint of that basket of goods from Amazon that over time will average out to being correct. Or if you know, for instance, that you just bought groceries on Amazon, you can go in and change that and see your carbon footprint change too. So there's a little bit of personalization available as well.
Alexsandra Guerra: Yeah, I'm so excited that we're able to partner. Personally, from my perspective and Nori, I think one of our challenges has been helping people understand and get clarity on what exactly is their carbon footprint. We've linked to different types of calculators for, let's say, your flights. [Nori promotion cut from the transcript. It’s still in the audio, but it no longer applies.] And then we link to just the Cool Effect tool from Berkeley, just a bunch of different ones. But it's been a problem where people want to get more, they don't want to have to do super arduous calculations and looking back at everything that they've done and purchased.
So I think this is a great tool for individuals specifically who are looking for carbon footprinting of the things that they do. So that's A huge motivator for Nori for us to partner with Joro. And I'm curious, what was Joro's motivation for working with us?
Sanchali Pal: I'm so glad you asked. One of the things that we want to be able to do is help people take action on their footprint. So step one is seeing your footprint, but step two is being able to do something about it. And for all of us, there's emissions in our lives that we can't get rid of no matter how many meat meals we decide we're willing to cut or The new bike that we got and then avoiding our local car trips. We're all going to have a footprint at the end of the day. You can't get to zero without doing something to reverse your emissions. And that's where we're really excited to work with Nori.
We've worked with... A lot of different offset providers to try to track down the best and most verifiable offsets that we could find and to try to give our users access to a variety of ways that they can reduce their emissions. And so Nori was a really natural partner for us to be able to give users access to one of the best ways they can reverse their emissions.
Alexsandra Guerra: Yeah. So then my next question is, why Joro? How did this come about?
Sanchali Pal: For me, I never thought that I was going to be starting a carbon footprint app company. I did it because of a personal frustration with the lack of tools out in the world. And that frustration building up over years eventually to the point where I felt like I just had to build it myself. I watched the documentary Food Inc. Back in 2010 or 2011. And that was the first time that I Thought about the fact that my choices as a consumer had something to do with the big systems we ended up with. I was an economics major and I just became fascinated with this idea that Demand is actually driven by consumers.
And when consumers' tastes and preferences shift in aggregate, we end up with different systems. And that's how our systems have evolved to the way they are now. I think plant-based foods is a really great example of where there was no government incentive asking companies to come up with plant-based alternatives. But now we have this giant plant-based sector that's all driven by consumer tastes and preferences. So that was really The fundamental thing that made me interested in this idea and eventually after working in social impact consulting for a little while deciding I wanted to focus on climate and energy. And then when I was in grad school meeting other people who had thought about the same idea of how do we help people make sustainable choices was when Jorah was born.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, this is great. I'm very curious about the nuts and bolts of how this works. How do you interact with data? I imagine this is some sort of, you have some smart machine learning nerds over there, parsing all this data, figuring out how to use it, how to estimate how this maybe changes for different seasonality. I don't know how exactly that works, but what is happening beyond the beautiful consumer facing app? What's happening back there?
Sanchali Pal: Yeah. So the first step is we use an API called Plaid to connect to users' credit cards. Plaid is sort of the industry standard in secure banking connection. And that's super important because obviously credit card and debit card information is really sensitive. So Plaid is the same API that Venmo uses and any major fintech apps use to connect to credit cards or debit cards for information. We do that so that Joro doesn't have to store any sensitive data on our servers. What we get is information about the transactions that people make, not their login or any of that secure information. So then we take the transaction information and We categorize it.
So the first step is categorizing transaction data. The second step is aligning it with a user's data. So things we know about that user in their profile from their onboarding survey or from information they've given us by modifying a transaction, for instance. And then we process that in what we'll call Jorah's Carbonizer. Internally, we call it that. And then we come out with the user's carbon footprint estimate on an ongoing basis. And Some of the areas of this approach, the approach that we take behind the hood, we use a lot of academic data and publicly available data sets. And then we blend that with bottom-up user data and validation from users on the true carbon footprint of what they're doing so that we can create a sort of proprietary model inside the Carbonizer platform.
Some of the work that we're doing is to advance that over the next few months. Our goal is to start to get to brand level estimates, not just subcategory level estimates. So if we're getting into the details, we can distinguish a coffee purchase from products. A restaurant purchase, for instance, but we don't distinguish between Starbucks and your local coffee shop. So that's something that actually no one in the world seems to be doing right now. Other apps in Sweden and Denmark and other parts of the world are trying to do something similar on the subcategory level for transactions. But we're going to try to push that further with brand level estimates as well.
Ross Kenyon: Alexsandra, did I hear you giggle at Carbonizer as well?
Sanchali Pal: No. Oh, okay. I'm glad you like it.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah. Plugging your data into the Carbonizer. That's cool. I think there's a lot there to it. And I agree. I have not really interacted with that many offset or carbon footprint estimators, calculators that I've wanted to write home about really either. Seemingly everyone's trying to figure it out. Why is it so hard?
Sanchali Pal: Why is figuring out carbon footprint estimates so hard?
Ross Kenyon: I understand why that part is hard, but I'm not a partisan of any one calculator in particular. They don't seemingly have a sort of like fan culture that you might expect. But Joro seems at least partially as a way of making this a really beautiful experience where people are going to stick around and want to participate in this ecosystem. That's part of the vision, something like that, right?
Alexsandra Guerra: Yes. Oh, I'm a Joro user now. You know that, Ross. We should all be. It's so much easier. And then you don't have to actually... I almost, even as a founder of Nori, oh my God, I can't believe I'm going to admit this. I have not done a thorough calculation of my carbon footprint probably since I was 20. So it's been 10 years because it's such a pain in the butt. And I don't ever want to do it, no matter how much I care. So I think Paul, our CEO, his hypothesis is that people should just... Do a rough ballpark and then add another 20% on top of that and just pay for the reversal of that much, which is a method.
But for those who want to get real clarity on what their footprint is, things like this app, Joro, are helpful to do that.
Sanchali Pal: Yeah, I feel like it's just we can't make progress on anything unless we have metrics. And just like if we're trying to lose weight, like it wouldn't really work for us to kind of like ballpark our weight and then ballpark if we did anything about it. It wouldn't really help us if we want to like... We didn't really have a great way of measuring our daily activity levels until we had footsteps. And we could say like, okay, did I hit my 10,000 steps or did I close my rings or whatever platform you use? There's some quantification of did I meet my goal? And I think that's really important for sustainability too.
It's really challenging if you have no clue what you're Maybe you have a 30-tonne range of what your footprint was last year. How do you know if you were better at it this year? So that's the goal. It's just to make that process a little easier. Maybe it's not going to... I agree. Getting to 100% accuracy is really difficult and not worth the pain. But if you can get to 80% accuracy and know enough that you know if you're generally better, generally worse, I think that's really important and really tedious if you don't have something to do it for you.
Alexsandra Guerra: So... Maybe let's talk about what exactly it is that Nori and Joro, I'm just going to call this Noro. What exactly are we doing? What's next for us? Do you want to take a crack at it, Sanchali?
Sanchali Pal: Sure. So for Earth Day this year, Noro, aka Nori and Joro, are releasing new carbon credits, NRTs, Nori Removal Tonnes that Joro users can buy after they've assessed their carbon footprint to reduce their footprint. So in the Joro app, you can see if you want to reverse your carbon footprint by purchasing soil sequestration removal tonnes or pick from other projects. But I'm really excited that we now have the option to use soil sequestration as a way for people to reduce their footprint.
Alexsandra Guerra: Yeah. And I think what would be really fun is when we get this totally automated in the background. Right now we're kind of doing it manually. Yeah. Are we calling it a pilot? Yeah.
Sanchali Pal: This is a pilot and we're going to make it even stronger after we test it out first.
Alexsandra Guerra: Yeah, totally. And so hopefully we'll be able to completely streamline this in the backend. And right now we're just going to do the retiring and the purchasing. Rasta, do you have a question?
Ross Kenyon: Yeah. And also I like that way of thinking about it as a pilot, you know, we're startups. I think a nice, modest, conservative approach and iterating on top of that is a good way to go. So fellow travelers there. But yeah, the main question I did want to ask is kind of a basic one, but how does Joro make money? How do you see growing your user base and sort of like financially sustaining yourselves? What's the vision there?
Sanchali Pal: In the long run, I see a major driver of our revenue, both through potentially being customers, of our product for their employees. So helping create a corporate benefit or engagement strategy around emissions reduction that their employees are an integral part of and through brand partnerships. So potentially you'll see in the app that there's something called a challenge, which is basically the option to opt into a behavior change for sustainability. And one of the things we'd love to do the coming months is Make those behavior changes linked to a certain call to action at a certain time. So hopefully partnering with companies on those calls to action.
And eventually we'd love to get to the place where I mentioned sort of brand level carbon footprint estimates, but where we can actually be confident enough in our carbon footprint estimates that we can make recommendations to users on lower carbon alternatives for their behavior.
Ross Kenyon: I have one. It's a little bit of a spicy one. Are you okay with that, Sanchali? I asked you a difficult question here. Yeah, okay. One of the main criticisms that I'll hear in regards to debates like this is to what degree is focusing on consumerism? So people say like the people who need to change are the big oil and gas companies. It's not just someone who commutes to work every day. It's unfair to put the burden on them when really they're responsible for such a small, basically negligible portion of global carbon emissions. Do you have something to maybe add back to them on that?
Sanchali Pal: Definitely. I agree with this argument to some extent, but I think it's very incomplete. In the big picture, yes, climate change is a systems problem. Yes, we need government regulation. And yes, we need companies to take major action to reverse their emissions because they have the resources and control to affect a large amount of emissions at once. And I don't think that we're going to be able to get to 2050 net zero or drawdown, however you want to call it, without them leading the charge. However, that doesn't mean that people don't have the power to accelerate the shift towards a cleaner future. And in fact, if you look at history, any of the major changes that we've had have been driven by people, just a few people making a few changes and calling very loudly for change.
People taking collective action is how any major shift in history has come about and climate change is no different. Companies and governments aren't going to make changes unless their consumers and citizens are demanding change. And I think we just need a better tool to show that we are taking these steps together. If there's anything that I take away from coronavirus, it's that we're seeing collective action work right now in an incredibly powerful way. People could say, why does it matter for me to stay home? Just me. It's not going to matter if I'm the only one at the coffee shop or I'm the only one at the office.
I don't have to stay home. I can't change this giant, scary, invisible crisis by myself. But when we all take action together, we can make a difference so quickly. We've bent the curve of the disease and we're bending the curve of emissions at the same time. So I see people as incredibly important to the change we're trying to create and also the quickest tool that we have to reduce emissions. There's so many things we need to invest in. We need to vote for that will take longer. But one of the things we can do now is reduce emissions that we're responsible for.
Ross Kenyon: Okay, that is, I think, a fair response. And it also applies to Nori. We also talk to regular people about becoming involved, and we are susceptible to this criticism too. So what I'm trying to do is set Alexsandra up. Do you agree with that approach, that response, Alexsandra? Or do you think there's something that you would add to that for Nori's behalf? What would you say?
Alexsandra Guerra: Oh man, that's a tough one because I think I very much largely personally agree with Sanchali's perspective and I think it's everything, right? All the approaches, there needs to be a little bit of government and then also a lot of people just doing what they think is right because governments move too slowly, corporations move with a lag time based off of pressure from either government investors or their customer base. And I think that I would like to see more and more people just feeling empowered, like A lot of people are aware of climate change and the majority of them like are concerned. It's just what can they possibly do about it?
And there's misinformation and like miseducation. People think recycling is going to help with climate change. Like it's a whole issue. So yeah, I largely believe that let's just start creating tools and methods and like put this in the hands of everyday people who are concerned, like concerned citizens who want to do something, but just haven't had a chance to. And I think that this is a perfect, like full solution to, Which is, you know, Noi, we've been saying you can reverse your footprints. But again, the first step is like giving people clarity on what exactly are they reversing? Did I emit a tonne this year? I don't know.
Well, you can go to Joro. You can download Joro's app. Put in your information, get an estimate of your carbon footprint, and then reverse those emissions with Nori carbon renewables. I know you guys have other projects on there and don't disparage them, of course. But yeah, we got to wrap our own. It's like do a carbon move for sure with Nori if you like and support what we've been doing. And I think that that's a perfect call to action given that it's Earth Day this week. Please like go download the app, Joro, J-O-R-O. And create an account, estimate your carbon footprints, and buy some carbon removal from Norway's website.
It's a perfect thing to do for Earth Day. Yes, it is.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, you guys really squeaked this in under the wire here just in time for Earth Day too. In fact, I think this episode will air on Earth Day. So nicely done scheduling angels who made this happen at the
Sanchali Pal: right time.
Ross Kenyon: I have a stupid question. I hope you'll indulge with Sanchali. Maybe you won't. Maybe this will be cut. We'll have to see. But when I think of Joro, there's something about... Do you know like in Portuguese how the D sounds become J sounds? Yeah, sure. I'm like always thinking Joro. I'm thinking of it as like a Portuguese. It has that sound. Is that... Wait, how do you
Sanchali Pal: pronounce it?
Ross Kenyon: Like instead of deodorant, I say Jodron, you know? I'm like, guarantee you got to cut. This is idiotic.
Sanchali Pal: That's so funny. Well, actually, it comes from the Norse word Jord, J-O-R-D. Joro is the protector of the earth. She's the goddess protector, human personification of the protector of the earth in Norse mythology.
Ross Kenyon: Okay, well, we got the origin there. It's always funny how, especially four-letter startups landed on their name. There's a whole science to it. If you never started a company, you probably don't know. But I don't know how long that took you, but it probably was a while, right?
Sanchali Pal: Actually, yeah, it was the name that one of the other people I was working with came up with before we formed our working group when we were in grad school. So I didn't even have to come up with it.
Ross Kenyon: Wow. So you're better than us then, it sounds like. Well done. Well, who out there listening are you trying to reach? Who should be using Joro? Who should be downloading it? How can they do so? How can they keep up with you? Give us all of that stuff right now.
Sanchali Pal: Yeah. Anyone who wants to take a climate action this Earth Day, but is isolated at home, maybe a little bored, should head over to the App Store or the Play Store around iOS and Android and Search for Joro, J-O-R-O, and download the app. See your carbon footprint. If you want, connect your credit card so you can track it on an ongoing basis. And check out the actions that you can take. Take one this Earth Day. The one that's easiest to take maybe is offsetting with Nori and Joro in the app. [Twitter plug cut from the transcript. It’s still in the audio.]
Ross Kenyon: All those links are in the show notes if you would like to follow up. Sanchali, thanks for being here.
Sanchali Pal: Thanks for having me. Happy Earth Day. Happy tomorrow. Yeah. Tomorrow day. Yeah.
Ross Kenyon: We're going to have to talk to the rest of our team before we commit to that. Just a heads up. Well, thank you. And thanks, Alexsandra, for being on the show.
Alexsandra Guerra: Thanks, Ross.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, yeah, my pleasure. And if you like the show, please rate and review us on iTunes, Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, tell your friends. [Nori promotion cut from the transcript. It’s still in the audio, but it no longer applies.] And thank you so much for listening.
