Do you wish your career was a little more gratifying? That it gave you the chance to work on something you really care about?
You don't need a science or engineering background to pursue a career in climate solutions. In fact, a variety of skill sets translate to climate work.
So, how do you get into the carbon removal space? Where can you go for resources and networking opportunities?
On this edition of the Reversing Climate Change CDR Happy Hour, Nori Meme Lab colleagues Asa Kamer and Siobhan Montoya Lavendar discuss their journey to a career in carbon removal, describing the college and early work experiences that inspired their work in the climate space.
Siobhan and Asa share the top resources for people interested in carbon removal and encourage us to check out the AirMiners community and OpenAir Collective for networking and volunteer opportunities.
Listen in for insight on who to follow for job openings in climate solutions and learn how to go about pursuing a career in the rapidly changing field of carbon removal.
More from the show
Ad-free episodes and other benefits come with a paid subscription.
Carbon Removal Newsroom, the news show that ran alongside this one, is over. Its episodes are still up, on the feed Climate Workers Anonymous now uses.
Carbon Removal Memes is still going.
Resources
California Wilderness Coalition
Pitzer College Ontario Program
Na’im Merchant’s Blog Carbon Curve
Siobhan Montoya Lavendar on TikTok
Carbon Removal Memes on Twitter
Carbon Removal Memes on Instagram
Full Transcript
You’re listening to the Reversing Climate Change podcast by the team at Nori, the carbon removal marketplace. This is a show about the innovators and entrepreneurs developing solutions to climate change.
Asa Kamer: Hello everyone, and welcome to this week’s edition of Carbon Removal Happy Hour. My name is Asa Kamer. I’m the producer of our sister podcast Carbon Removal Newsroom, and our normal host Ross Kenyon isn’t with us this week, so it’s a slightly reduced happy hour, but it will still be happy and it will still be good. And joining me is our other regular co-host and participant, Siobhan Montoya Lavender. Hi, Siobhan.
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: Hello everybody. Sorry Ross isn’t here. Asa’s completely right — the happiness will be reduced, but we’re going to try and keep it up for you.
Asa Kamer: We’ll do our best. And I didn’t have an intro for you, but do you want to give a quick bio, Siobhan?
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: Hey guys, I’m Siobhan [unclear] Montoya Lavender. I am the co-founder at Thanks a Ton, and I help out with the meme and humorous content here at Nori.
Asa Kamer: Yes, you’re involved in multiple carbon removal projects, so you’re the right person to talk about this topic. And we were thinking today what we would talk a little bit about is what brought us into carbon removal, and some suggestions we may have for those who are interested in working in the field or getting involved.
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: Yes, I love it. I think there’s just been a plethora of people kind of coming into carbon removal in the last year or so, last six months even, and, you know, we don’t have all the answers, but we must have some. And so let’s give the people what they want and some ideas about how to have a career in carbon removal.
Asa Kamer: Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, I’m excited to get into it with you, because I feel like you are one of these very connected people and know a lot of people in the field, and you probably have a lot of good ideas.
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: I love that I give that vibe. I don’t know how true it is, but I like the vibes there.
Asa Kamer: All right, good. Well, we’ll see how it goes. So just to start us off, do you want to talk about what brought you into carbon removal?
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: Yeah, well, first of all, the freaky thing is that Asa and I went to the same undergraduate university and I didn’t know him there. I don’t know if I probably did know you, or if we ever passed [unclear]. But we went to the same college in Southern California. And I don’t know about you, but it’s pretty uncommon to declare your major early on in liberal arts, right? So, liberal arts, most people are declaring junior, possibly even senior year. You’re supposed to kind of explore and figure out your niche and everything. I came in freshman year and I was like, I need a new advisor, I’m going to be an environmental major, like that’s what I’m going to do. Came in pretty hot for that. So yeah, I think working in climate was probably always going to be my trajectory, but we didn’t call it working in climate back in, you know, 2006 when I started undergrad. How about you?
Asa Kamer: Right? Yeah. Well, Pitzer College, let’s give a shout-out. Go Sagehens.
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: Yes, indeed. It is the wimpiest mascot of all time. It’s — by the way, guys, we’ll put it in the show notes — it’s like a desert bird. It’s actually really cool and beautiful. But is it something that would intimidate your sporting competitors? I’m going to go ahead and say no.
Asa Kamer: It’s funny you say that. I took a more winding road to my major, because I was so excited in college to just take all these different classes and different subjects and I didn’t want to have to pick. And I was actually going to make my own major so that I could just keep taking all the different classes, but then realized that was maybe not a good idea for various reasons. And the environmental studies department at Pitzer and Pomona, which I think was somehow combined — I don’t remember, but there was some connection. Yeah, very good.
And that was what I was always most interested in as well: environmental studies and some of the different aspects of that. And yeah, I also remember the way that climate conversations were very much part of the curriculum at that time, but at the same time very different than I’m sure they are now in academia, just because there was a lot less, I would say, progress within society to address climate change. There was a whole different trajectory in terms of, like, the energy supply of our world population. Incentives are different. The Paris Agreement hadn’t happened. I mean, I remember being in class when we found out about the Copenhagen agreements not working, or not coming together for an agreement, in like 2010, and that was so much more the vibe, I think.
Yeah. And I remember I had a class at Keck, that sort of joint science department at some of the different colleges that are connected there. And there was a class, which was actually super educational, where we would review different literature that was coming out related to climate change, and our professor was very interested in climate change, but it was also more on the side of trying to encourage us to think that it was something that would affect civilization on the timeline of like 100 years rather than imminently. And at the time, kind of bristling against that, but he was, like, the super smart academic guy, and so I had no way to disagree. But anyway.
Yeah. So it’s just such a very different, very different scenario. And the only thing related to carbon removal, as it were, that I can remember would be, like, soil carbon sequestration was something that existed. Yeah, and there being some — I think one or two classes having some curriculum that touched on that, including a class on, like, I don’t remember what it’s called, ecological agriculture, I think it was called. Yeah, and the science of that, which is very — you know, I didn’t really grow up in an agricultural community, so that was very enlightening for me. But anyway, yeah, I think it was definitely a great jumping-off point, that kind of environmental education.
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: Yeah, I think [unclear]. As you point out, I’m sure the curriculum is pretty different these days, not just at Pitzer but at any liberal arts college, around environmental studies, around climate, around climate science. So if you’re a college-aged student listening to this and have the opportunity to take those classes, if you’re even remotely interested in climate — and maybe you’re not going to, maybe you find your strength is like marketing or something, and God knows we need lots of marketers in climate, we need lots of, you know, civil engineers in climate. We need lots of all sorts of different skills. So I definitely don’t think you need to pigeonhole yourself and say, well, I’m going to study, you know, geology because I want to work in climate or something. No, you can study what you’re called to, what you’re good at. But if you are interested in climate and have the opportunity to take a climate class, I highly recommend it, just to have that kind of background that can influence and inform decisions in the other academic genres you want to pursue, like marketing, or civil engineering, or whatever it may be.
Asa Kamer: Yeah, I mean, another side of that is I think most people are very aware of climate change, but it’s also such a complex topic, and I think the way it gets covered in mainstream media and just different conversations, you get a very surface-level understanding of it and it can be hard to kind of parse it out. And so giving yourself a little bit of basis of, like, the science and some of the foundational elements of what’s going on and what some of the headlines mean is probably really helpful, because otherwise it’s — well, even so, it’s very confusing no matter what. It’s very, very complicated, very complex. But, you know, give yourself a little leg up in the different — give it a foundation.
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: I feel like that’s a very liberal arts answer from us. We were good liberal arts students. Yeah, we’re lovingly [unclear] — get some basic foundation in all these different genres. They really brainwashed us in that, indeed. Writing is good. I think it’s good advice for college kids out there.
Also, I feel like for me personally, getting into climate and carbon work, my internship was really pivotal. I interned my senior year in the Inland Empire at the California Wilderness Coalition, terrific NGO that was doing different kinds of preservation work, and I interned with that my senior year. One of the professors at Pitzer hooked it up, and man, that was, like, all I was asked about in my first job interview. It was all this stuff, and thankfully I had lots of answers. It was like, well, did you use, you know, a stormwater pollution prevention plan when you were looking at implementing this project in the desert on this BLM land and stuff? And yeah, I think the internship was really pivotal for me. So I highly recommend internships. I know they can be controversial, like some people would say, is it — but in my specific case, I’m glad I interned my senior year. Did you ever do an internship?
Asa Kamer: I did, I did. I did a program called the Ontario Program, which was through Pitzer, where they basically have this idea of, you know, why not have people, like, quote-unquote study abroad in other communities within — like, there’s basically the next town over. And so we had internship opportunities through that. And I recall that there was a Native American tribe that had their headquarters, like, in Pomona, which is the next town over. And so I had — I really want to put it in quotes — a quote-unquote internship where I went there, and really they were just kind of happy to have us, and we just kind of hung out with some of the people who ran the office there and did very little work and contributed virtually nothing to their efforts. And I would show up, like, how can I help you? And they’re like, I don’t know, really. Are you sure? But, like, if it’s for your education, you want to come hang out with us. And so, yeah.
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: That’s also a very typical thing. I remember when I did study abroad, I studied abroad in Botswana in southern Africa. And I remember the only training I had before going, like orientation, they were like, you are not there to do sh*t. Like, you are not there to help, you can’t help, there’s no greater knowledge that you have. Like, you are just there to be quiet and respectful and learn. And that was kind of what was drummed into us. And I think it panned out. Like, I don’t think — I think I got like 99% out of that relationship and they probably got like 1%.
Asa Kamer: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. So since college, were there any steps or any things that brought you towards carbon removal? Is there a talk you saw or something you read or something that inspired that?
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: Well, I was working right out of college. First of all, you and I graduated during the recession. That’s right. It was great, wasn’t it? Pretty great, man. It was the Great Recession. I think it was traumatizing, and I look back and I think about how I was so grateful to have that job, right? Like, I got a job within two months of graduating or something, at this private consulting firm, to do environmental work, to write environmental impact statements, to do environmental monitoring and reporting, to do inspections for major utility projects mostly. And I was just so thankful to have that job, and so many of my friends were unemployed and, you know, living at home and whatnot, that I feel like I never negotiated my salary, I never pushed back on any of my responsibilities, I never pushed back on anything, really. I was just like, thank you, thank you, I’m so glad I have this job.
And so in retrospect I feel like I could have milked that a lot more, and I could have really carved out a better role for myself, and it could have been better for both me and the company if I had been a little more [unclear]. But I think there was just the trauma of so many unemployed friends and, you know, my folks are public school teachers, so it wasn’t like I had a lot of family money to fall back on. Well, hindsight’s 20/20. Exactly.
So I got right into environmental work, which is great, though, because — talk about learning, you know, via doing — working on really cool projects with amazing biologists and ecologists and permitting specialists, and I really got to get my hand in all sorts of projects. So that’s, like I said, a recommendation I have: if you can get into kind of a position that’s more of a jack-of-all-trades position early on. I feel like that was pretty awesome, because I really did get exposed to the difference between doing ecology surveys and doing permitting and whatnot. So that definitely kept me in — like, introduced me to and kept me in environmental work. And then I didn’t really get bitten by the carbon bug until graduate school.
So I was working for this company and knew I wanted to kind of open up my opportunities, and most people in the environmental consulting field have at least a master’s degree, right? That’s very common. And so I was like, okay, I should probably get a master’s degree. And so I went to SF State. I was still working about 75% time so I could pay for it, and then went on — you know, I scheduled my classes, they were all like one or two days a week — and studied microclimatology in the department of geography, and focused on carbon flux measurements over microclimate ecosystems. And man, that was just so cool, and I got so excited about carbon. And so I feel like that’s kind of when I really understood the importance of measuring and accounting for carbon. And, like, you know, I had always kind of known — we talked, you know, certainly talked about parts per million before that, and in undergrad I’m sure that came up, or there was an awareness around that certainly. An Inconvenient Truth had come out, there was some awareness. But I think it wasn’t until grad school that I really got excited about it. How about you? Was there like a great book or a great movie or something that you would recommend?
Asa Kamer: Oh man, definitely. Yes, a list, probably. I think for me, after college I wasn’t working in any sort of environmental field for years, but remained interested in climate change and environmental issues. And I think just curiosity brought me into it, like learning about the different — there’s so many different facets of the fight against climate change and how we’ll adapt to climate change, and, you know, it’s sort of a massive field, right? And kind of bouncing around reading different things, just trying to wrap my head around such a big, you know, frankly scary situation that’s obviously going to affect me and affect everyone I know and everyone around the world. And just kind of like, well, what’s going on here? And that brought me — you know, at some point I got into this idea of removing CO2 from the atmosphere as, like, an additional component to decarbonization, and found that really interesting.
And then I think also just trying to understand what the world will be like, you know, in our climate future. Because I feel like so much of the discussion on climate change is about these pathways, right? Like, if we do this, then we’ll be like this; if we do this, then we’ll be like this. And they’re all sort of, you know, they exist on a spreadsheet. There’s — I won’t say arbitrary, but they’re constructs, you know, to represent different choices that policymakers have. But they don’t really tell you, as just like a lay person — which I was, you know, a lay person trying to educate themselves — like, what’s it actually going to be like? What is the future going to be like? Which, of course, we don’t really know, but maybe could we project a little bit, or could we have some understanding of, like, where are we headed here? What’s going to be going on?
And, you know, learning about the climate scenarios and these climate agreements of, like, we’re going to be at 1.5, we’re going to be at two degrees, etc., and realizing that the math that they made to work to plan out how we would reduce our emissions such that we only have a certain level of warming — they often use negative emissions technologies. Being like, huh, that’s interesting. Like, how are we going to do that? Are we going to do that? And they’re still doing that. And it’s, you know, obviously there’s some controversy in — you know, that’s something people can debate about, you know, how models are done. That’s not really what I’m trying to say here. I’m just trying to say that that kind of opened my eyes to the idea of, like, oh, this might be something that’s going to exist on a large scale in the future.
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: Yeah. I like the curiosity in this story. I like how this is kind of like an innate curiosity led you into this and, like, thinking about what — because I think that’s very relatable. I think a lot of people that are looking at the news and hearing stories about climate change and wanting to get involved are trying to think, like, what is the world going to look like? What do all these climate models mean? Like, I think that’s true for a lot of people.
Asa Kamer: Totally. And, like, not to get too far afield here with my various theories and beliefs, but, you know — [unclear] go for it — it’s easy to get into, like, apocalyptic narratives, where it’s like, if this happens then it’s all over, if this happens then civilization is going to collapse. Like, you know, those ways of looking at environmental problems, looking at overpopulation and looking at climate change, I think are really compelling and really grab the mind and make people pay attention to them. And, you know, in some cases, maybe we should consider that possibility. Like, there was a time when we were in college when, you know, the world was building a huge amount of new coal plants, and it was like, wow, we really could kill everyone with climate change, like, bam. Now, maybe that’s less likely — although obviously, like, horrible, catastrophic things are still very much on the table, so I don’t want to downplay that. But just to say, noticing that myself, I could potentially get drawn into thinking like that.
But another [unclear] that is really — give you information to just be like, there’s this cliff and we’re getting off this cliff and then who knows, it’s just darkness. And, like, that’s not really how it’s going to play out, right? Like, that’s, you know, that we’re going to hit some threshold and then the next day will come and, you know, it’s going to be really bad. Like, again, I don’t want to downplay it, but life will go on and civilization will continue in some form, and we’re going to have to, you know, I don’t know. So just trying to understand it as, rather than a black-and-white, more of a [unclear].
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: So this is what happens when you work on climate: you become, like, involuntarily optimistic. Or not even — I don’t even say it’s optimism, it’s just, like, when you work on climate solutions all day, every day, you tend to get in this mindset and it’s like, okay, we’re going to solve it, like we’re going to fix it. You know, I think that’s one of the real beauties of working in any environmental field. And I said this even before I worked directly in climate — and then, I guess, all environmental stuff is relatively in climate, you know. But I felt like at the end of the day, working for this environmental consulting firm, it was like, okay, I can put my stamp on the day, like I did my part. I feel good about my contributions. The world is slightly better in this one minute way because of something I did today, a decision I made today. And I feel like that’s, man, that’s the glory of working in this stuff.
The downside, though, is you do have, I think, a lot of that. Like, have you seen — what’s that Alex Honnold movie that won the Oscar? Free Solo.
Asa Kamer: Please. Hello. So good.
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: Such a great film, great movie, such great cinema, as you would say. Great cinema. I highly recommend it. That’s great cinema. And he talks about, like, there’s this guy who’s being interviewed and says, you know, for people who don’t know a lot about rock climbing, they see what Alex is doing and they’re like, okay, I guess he’s got it, you know? And for people who really know a lot about free soloing, they see what he’s doing and they’re like, this is effing insane.
Asa Kamer: Yes, I think there is some truth to that. And when you work in climate, you — like, mostly I feel energized, most days I feel optimistic. Sometimes, you know, you’re just privy to datasets and you’re spending a lot of time looking at information, and you’re like, sh*t, the scale of the problem is so big. Or you’re like, damn it, why does every solution have like nine caveats and like 20 hurdles to overcome? And, you know, I think it goes both ways. Maybe it’s just me, that’s my own internal struggle. It’s like being my own Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. It’s like, I’m like it’s going to be perfect, we can do this, and then I’m like, sh*t, the scale of the problem.
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: Yeah, yeah. I totally relate to that. And were there any, like, errors in judgment that you wish you could go back and change in terms of, like, getting into climate and choosing your climate career?
Asa Kamer: Errors in judgment. I mean, I think I actually did, out of college, get a little burnt out on it and didn’t work in the climate field for years, and I was actually working in mental health, which I think is sort of interesting. Like, there’s, you know, looking back and kind of analyzing my decisions, like in retrospect, you know, mental health has a component of wanting to help people, wanting to support people. There’s also, like, a crisis response type of element to it, but it’s more direct, or at least theoretically it’s more direct, like working directly with people rather than working with big systems and government and science and all these things.
So I think I really liked that for some time, like working directly with people and, you know, talking about their situation, their lives, like what they were going through, and just kind of hashing it out and listening. And there’s just, like, a different type of connecting to the problems that people have that way, versus working in climate. But it’s kind of interesting that I’ve since kind of come back around to being focused on environmental issues professionally, like since being in college. So I think it was maybe that — maybe I was always going to end up there, but I had to kind of detach a little bit from it out of college. I think for a variety of reasons: like, one, it can be very overwhelming and, you know, emotional to be so connected to it. Like, there’s just a burnout factor.
Yeah. I also think I was maybe trying to — I don’t know exactly how to put this, but there is just sort of a — yeah, I don’t know. I guess there wasn’t the right foothold for me to work in it. So it just took some time for me to learn more, find what I was really interested in.
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: That’s a good lesson too, is like there’s not necessarily a direct line from academia straight to climate, you know. Like, that’s not always the case for everybody. And as we’ve seen, there are so many people from tech, from different sectors, that are migrating to climate these days. Not enough — we need more — but they’ve migrated on over. If you need help, there’s lots of resources.
Asa Kamer: Mm, yeah. And I would also say there’s — it is a field that’s growing so fast that it’s a bit of a wild west where, you know, it’s not like it’s a really established institution or field where it’s like, to get this position you have to have these credentials and this degree, you know, something like that. Like, there’s — bring your skill set, bring your interest, like talk to a lot of people, and you can probably find a place to plug in in this, like, rapidly growing, rapidly changing sector, be it in a start-up, be it in, like, a large existing company, be it in government, or, you know, more toward science and academia and education. All possible.
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: Let’s shout out some of those, like, networks and resources. What would you say are, like, the most valuable value-add resources within climate and climate communities that you used to kind of help pave your career path?
Asa Kamer: Well, for carbon removal specifically there’s kind of three things that come to mind. One would be the AirMiners network, which I think — a lot of people listening to this, you’re now a few minutes into our Carbon Removal Happy Hour, you’re a carbon removal nerd like we are, you probably know about it. But just to speak to my experience, that was really helpful just to have a central place for a lot of people who are working on it, where it’s kind of communicating, sharing resources. And also because it was a Slack setup, it was really easy to, like, DM people and ask questions, and I really found that most people responded and were kind of enthusiastic and, like, wanted to help people along and wanted to answer questions. And I think that AirMiners was kind of key to me, like, getting a bit of an understanding of the landscape, both in terms of what companies are out there but also just the landscape of, like, sort of known possible carbon removal methodologies — like what’s out there, because there are many and they all have their own issues, like you were saying. But that was kind of like an early education.
And then another thing I did, the second thing, was we did, like, on AirMiners, I arranged with a couple of people to be like a study group based on — you’ve got to shout out John Sanchez about his Carbon Removal Academy. I feel like we’ve talked about this multiple times, but basically we had a Zoom during the pandemic, like a Zoom cohort, and we would meet, I think, every other week and talk about a different chapter in his curriculum about carbon removal. And that was another level up for me, just getting to hear all these other people learning about it. I would say most people who were doing it were kind of in, like, maybe the second year of college, so to speak, of learning about it — not necessarily 101, but still a lot of questions, basic questions. People are starting to maybe dive into their own areas of interest, like subsets. And I think just having the opportunity of, like, a discussion group, to talk to people, get other people’s perspective on the complexities of it all — that was really, really helpful. And maybe the reason I’m still paying attention to carbon removal. Like, that’s probably one of the reasons. Just, I mean, doing it with some other people is, you know, it’s good.
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: Agreed, 100%. And I think that — I mean, I also did the Carbon Removal Academy, which has since become Boot Up, which we should link to in the show notes. So if you’re listening to this and you want to get into carbon removal, it’s now AirMiners Boot Up, and it’s like a whole course that you can do with a cohort. So that’s a great opportunity. And it’s really, like, as you say, I think it’s all levels. I think, you know, you can come in at any level of your learning and find information that’s going to propel you and be helpful. So yeah, I think that’s a great resource. AirMiners in general, phenomenal. Yes. Sorry to interrupt.
Asa Kamer: Go ahead.
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: No, just — AirMiners has been great. I joined AirMiners because the head of AirMiners is Tito Jankowski, and he recommended it. Thank you, Tito. Yes. Yeah, he’s terrific. I’ve known him for a lot of years and he recommended joining, so glad I did. So that’s, you know, really for carbon removal and CCS and people who are really interested in carbon specifically. If you want to get into reversing climate change and not necessarily through carbon removal, I would also definitely recommend Work on Climate, which is a Slack community. They host events, different opportunities to get involved. And really, I feel like you get out what you put in there, you know. Like, I was working on a pitch deck and someone was like, hey, I’m going to start, like, a pitch deck party, and we’re going to, like, meet and resume and, like, review each of these pitch decks. And so I jumped into that group, and I’m still connected to those people. And I think there’s just lots of great opportunities to get involved there. So Work on Climate, great operation.
Also, if you want to just get some — maybe you didn’t take, you know, the environmental class in undergrad, and so you’re really feeling like you’re starting from a deficit. Great option would be Terra.do, which has, like, kind of environmental coursework that you can take at any age and any stage of life. So Terra.do is also a place I would certainly recommend.
Asa Kamer: Everything we’ve mentioned so far is free, which is just, like, by the way, amazing that all these things are just free and available. That’s awesome. Another thing that really didn’t exist in the same way when we were in college — or maybe did, not in the same way. But so the Terra.do, that’s more like akin to a university course, and I think there is a cost associated with that one, correct?
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: Yeah, that one — you’ll have, like, some other cohort but it will be a cost. There’s various options in [unclear] skills and whatnot. I haven’t actually taken a course in that myself, but a lot of people I know have and had a lot of success. And out of that I did the Terra Studio, which is like their kind of accelerator program, like a builder program, and that was really great and supportive and helpful, and that was free. And so I think those are some great options. I think if you are kind of a volunteer and activist and really want to get involved in your local community — OpenAir Collective, man. They are, like, hitting the ground running, you know. Like, I’m part of the collective. I should volunteer more of my time than I do. I really should. But that’s enough self-flagellation.
Asa Kamer: Well, we’re shouting them out, at least.
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: Check out OpenAir. You know, they are really great at, you know, kind of getting bills passed, local movements, local legislation. Doing really good work there. So that’s another place you can get involved.
Asa Kamer: Yes, I also had them on my list. So for me, like, AirMiners was huge for, like, learning the landscape and networking, and I think it’s especially — it’s for anyone who’s interested. But I think if you’re into the idea of creating a start-up in carbon removal or joining one, that’s a great place, a little one-stop shop to do that, and there’s a lot of people working on, you know, that kind of thing. So join that out of interest, but that’s, like, their specialty from what I can tell. For OpenAir, also join that. Their specialty, as you said, Siobhan, is like if you want to start working on a project right away in carbon removal today, like, that’s a great place to go do that. And it’s this very interesting, you know, concept — it’s a volunteer network and it’s people all around the world and they’re all kind of teaming up on Discord to do these kind of decentralized projects under the header of, like, carbon removal.
But the folks there are just tremendously encouraging and will help you get linked up and, like, get working on either, like, building your own DAC device. Like, there’s people working on, like you’re saying, Siobhan, legislative advocacy. There’s folks working on education on CDR. And just, by the by, they’re like — this is CDR, their YouTube channel. If you [unclear] YouTube channel, they have this sub-series of [unclear]. It’s like, basically, a free graduate degree in carbon removal. Like, honestly, it’s really exceptional, and they just kind of keep turning them out on YouTube and they’re really good. They just have amazing guests and get into, like, a really great level of depth but also keep it accessible to, you know, an interested layperson.
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: Yeah, those are the — I actually watched those, if I don’t attend the live, you know. How, like, you signed up for, like, a hundred webinars and you’re like, oh man, I’ll attend this webinar, and then you don’t, like, but that’s okay because I’m going to watch it later when it comes out — and you never do. Yeah. Well, I do end up watching the OpenAir ones because they’re that good.
Asa Kamer: They really are, they’re amazing. And they get people who are, like, really the ones working on the projects that will decide if we are able to do large-scale carbon removal, and talk about where they’re at and what’s going on. And it’s just an amazing level of info. I mean, you’ve got to be a carbon removal nerd like us, but if you are, like, you know, you don’t have to be. I just mean, like, if you find, if you’re kind of into it, you’ll enjoy it. If you make it all the way to their YouTube channel, you already are.
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: But, like, it’s just, it’s tough. So definitely shout out to them. But you could also, like, work on those kinds of projects behind the scenes, like, put them up and, you know, arrange it. So I would highly, highly recommend that group as well, for just, like, a great — that’s a great education. And for me, like, I was doing some projects with them, met some good people, was just very encouraged. Like, I just have to say, there’s just something about, like, the encouragement that I think helps kind of [unclear] you, who OpenAir upon, hey, met you in a field or in a certain direction, like learning about something. Just have it be real, you know. It’s not just behind — you behind the screen reading about something. It’s like, you’re working on something, you have your community to work with.
You’ve inspired me, by the way. I’m going to do a live meme pitch now. I think we should do a series of memes on, like, you know, you are a carbon nerd if — some kind of thing.
Asa Kamer: Yeah, it could be like, are you already watching OpenAir on YouTube?
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: Yeah, I love it. Yeah, we need to just, like, praise them more with just, like, amazing memes. Yeah, I don’t think we’ve done anything really targeted at them. This is a new mission. Now we’ve got to target them with some memes.
Asa Kamer: Yeah. But they’re actually — I mean, just to, like, give one more minute of praise to them — like, they are, like, working on legislative advocacy for, like, their first project was, like, low-carbon cement, which is obviously a big emitting sector that needs to be decarbonized quickly, and they’re working on, like, state-level advocacy to do that. One of the — probably the biggest volunteer group doing that. I think there’s probably other environmental groups that work on that issue in state houses, but the biggest — I mean, maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t know, one of the bigger volunteer groups. So I think that’s really cool. Now they’re working on an even broader kind of concept of getting governments to procure carbon removal at, like, a large-scale way. That would set up good guardrails for an industry, make it well regulated but also make it, like, big. And they’re just, like, out there going and talking to legislators, working together with, like, a lot of people, figuring out how to, you know, push the government to work on this. And it’s really [unclear].
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: So I think an overall message here is, like, jump in. You know, I feel like — we all need to make money, and you might not find a paying job right away in climate or in carbon removal. You might. But I also think there’s just a space for, if you have time in the evenings, if you have a little time on the weekends, like, find some time and just volunteer and get involved. Because that network and those connections and that experience is going to be so helpful and so valuable, and there’s so many, like, tiny CDR start-ups that need help. You know, I’m always impressed — I see AirMiners, I see Work on Climate, and I’m always impressed with how supportive of builders the climate community in general as a whole is, you know. If you put out a specific ask like, hey, I need somebody to review my business model, you’ll get, like, ten replies.
I just think it’s a really supportive community, and so, you know, getting involved and being one of those ten people, the response like, hey, I’ve reviewed multiple business models and, you know, I have a half an hour and I can do this. I think that’s a really great jumping-off point. And I’m certainly super grateful to everybody, so many people who have just jumped in and said, how can I help? [unclear] sometimes, you know, do you need advice on XYZ topic? Or if I asked for something specific — I’m always just really touched by how many people reach out to help.
Asa Kamer: Yeah, yeah. Amen to that. I mean, I wrote down — you said jump in, I wrote down the water’s warm, so as in, jump in. So I think [unclear] is why we need more ocean alkalinity, we need to cool the water. But yes, another unintentional pun. But I meant, like, get in there. And with so much money, so much funding flowing into this field, only more to come broadly for climate via the new — well, in the US anyway, via the new climate bill — going to spur so much, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars of investment probably. So we all, like you said, we all need to pay rent, but that’s not going to — I mean, there’s a lot of paying jobs, there’s a lot of open positions in carbon removal, in climate. And maybe there’s an interim where you have to volunteer or network or do all those things you have to do in this day and age to get jobs, but there are lots of jobs. And as we were talking about before, it’s not science-specific anymore, I don’t think.
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: Yes, there’s tons of chemical engineering jobs that are deeply needed. So if you’re a chemical engineer, congratulations, you’re already working in climate. But also, you know, there’s sales jobs, there’s marketing jobs, there’s administrative jobs, there’s, you know, procurement jobs. There’s lots of skills that translate to this industry and that are deeply needed, because I think so many people who come to this industry are coming from, like, a science background. And so there’s a real gap to be filled by a lot of the other skills that need to flesh out an industry. This is going to be a huge industry, so it needs everybody.
Asa Kamer: Yeah, totally agree with that, endorse everything you said. I hate to, like, bury — I’ll put this in the show notes. Another great resource is our podcasting colleague named Na’im Merchant, who’s regularly on our other sister podcast, Carbon Removal Newsroom. Through his Twitter and also, I think, on his blog and his Substack, you can find regular posts about jobs that are available in carbon removal. And I think he does, like, ten at a time, and though I’m not looking, it’s just so encouraging to see. Because I don’t know, just the idea that there were, like — I don’t think there were ten open positions in carbon removal, period, when I started learning about this field, like, not that long ago.
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: Oh yeah, yeah.
Asa Kamer: So [unclear] and other factors, like ten a month, and a lot of them — there’s, he’s just posting about a company which is hiring for five to ten positions, and then there’s probably a lot that he’s not, you know, covering, like, and it may be incomplete, like, these are mostly start-up focused. So I would just say, like, follow him, but take that as a sort of, you know, green light that there’s a lot of opportunity, for sure.
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: That reminds me of also Climatebase, which we haven’t shouted out yet, but that’s a great resource. So Climatebase, it’s like a job board website, amongst other things, and posts jobs specifically in climate. And they have, like, a subscribe to their newsletter, and they put out the newest, latest and greatest jobs that they’re listing. So yeah, maybe I take back what I said about, you know, you can’t get a paying job. I think you probably could pretty quickly if you followed some of these resources. Another person similar to Na’im I would follow, especially if you’re on TikTok — well, you should follow me, I’m at Let’s Talk Carbon.
Asa Kamer: Okay, you can follow me at [unclear] to talk about carbon and be one of my, you know, ten followers.
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: But also I would follow Heidi Lim. So, like, if you’re a young person, or hey, just any person, who’s on TikTok, her handle is, I’m pretty sure, at Heidi Heidi Lim — I’ll check, we can put that in the show notes — and she also is a great resource for helping people transition into carbon and has, like, regular tips and ideas and tactics and suggestions. So that’s another great resource. So many great resources for working in climate. What are you doing? Stop what you’re doing now, stop listening to this podcast, go sign up for these newsletters and these Slack groups and start working on climate.
Asa Kamer: Yeah. I mean, it does feel like there’s so much opportunity, and it’s also, like, a great time to get a foothold in an industry which is only going to grow and become more necessary, obviously, as the years go on. So it doesn’t necessarily feel like, you know, you have to make some big sacrifice to do it. And, you know, circling back, that’s maybe more how it felt when we were coming out of college — it was, like, low-paying jobs, internships, like, in the recession. It was hard to be like, I want to work on something I care about out of college, not a lot of work experience, and, like, get paid to do it. Like, that was few and far between. And it doesn’t necessarily feel like that’s the reality anymore. So, and it’s like you were saying, it is, like, incredibly gratifying, and I think just vital to be working on it if it’s something you care about. Like, contribute. And, you know, let’s all work and try to move the needle a little bit.
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: Mm, yeah. But there’s people who want to help you along the way, including us. So yeah, feel free to DM. If you need help — I feel like we’ve outlined some pretty good resources there. Anything else to add?
Asa Kamer: Yeah, I would say the only thing — the only thing is just, like, with carbon removal you do have to be ready for just a lot of — it’s very complex, in the sense of trade-offs, in the sense of political economy, in the sense of what motives people might have to do it. It obviously can be controversial within the environmental field, maybe less so, less and less so. But, you know, if you’re working in renewable energy and you’re just working to, like, rapidly displace high-emitting, like, coal and natural gas, you know, generally something to do, it’s totally awesome. And I think generally that’s, like, a big win, you know, like in terms of, like, decarbonizing. Whereas, you know, certain elements of carbon removal, like, you do have to grapple with certain questions about, like, funding, siting issues, investing in other forms of decarbonization. Like, it’s complex and it’s not an easy answer.
And I think the folks that do end up focusing on it share a realization and understanding that it will be necessary and will be necessary at a large scale, and it’s worth the investment now. But I’m just saying there’s a lot going on. There’s a lot of different competing narratives. There’s a lot of facts that are a little bit, you know, uncomfortable that you have to kind of sit with and deal with and find your own sort of compass within that. And so, too, like, the flip side of all that is it’s actually sort of a benefit, and I really like, you know, focusing on something that is very complex and tricky in that way, and it’s sort of an intellectual challenge and there’s not necessarily easy answers.
So I think there’s actually something that, like, because it’s such a hard problem, it draws people who want to work on that. But I don’t know, I just — I would say there’s a certain open-mindedness and a certain patience you have to have to wade into this field, but I think it’s really worth it. And I think that when a large group of people are able to build large-scale carbon removal and actually make a meaningful difference in the climate fight, we’ll look back and be like, yeah, it was probably good that we tolerated some of the uncertainty and tolerated some of the confusion and, like, made our way through it. But it’s not always easy. And I just, I don’t know, I feel like that’s something I would like to impart.
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: We’re saying it’s very complex, as you point out, and not only that, but constantly evolving. So if you want to constantly learn at your job, work in carbon removal, because it’s constantly learning. And I feel like stuff I learned in grad school already feels out of date, you know.
Asa Kamer: Me too.
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: And so I’m constantly learning. I would argue that, like, yes, there are CDR experts, but they’re incredibly few and far between. And, I don’t know, like, the ten people you think are experts probably wouldn’t consider themselves experts, you know? Because it is so complex, it is so evolving. And just because you’re an expert in, like, one facet — as you point out, carbon removal is like a real economic problem, and it’s an industry problem, and it’s a circular economy problem. And, you know, it’s not just a science problem, or it’s not just a policy problem. It really needs to be tackled from all angles.
Asa Kamer: Amen. And I mean, there are people who, I think, were entering the field, so to speak, or getting curious about it at around the same time, like, you and I were, and now we would probably call them experts, you know, just, like, straight up. Like, if you’re sitting on the fence right now listening to this, like, you’re not that far from being an expert. Like, there’s, like, a lot of, like, building up that has to happen and it’s not built yet. So also, like, you know, jump in, and, like, if you’re passionate about it and you’re doing OpenAir stuff, you’re doing AirMiners, you’re doing your own project, your own start-up, like, you will — it won’t take long till you’re, like, kind of at the forefront. And, like, yeah, I feel like, listen to a lot of these, like, podcasts or talks with, like, start-ups that are now, like, funded carbon removal start-ups that are, like, widely celebrated. Like, their stories are often of getting into climate, like, just a few years prior, and the way that [unclear] and working hard to put together a proposal and a team that someone would be willing to throw some money behind.
But, like, yeah. So, like, if you’re listening, like, that’s you. That’s you in a few years. So just, like, do it. This is your official invitation. Come on over.
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: Yes. Get into it. And then you can come on the Carbon Removal Happy Hour.
Asa Kamer: Yeah. Come be happy with us. Is that happy enough, Ross? I feel like we didn’t meme enough on this one, but let’s hope there were some fun tips and tricks for people. Hope this is more useful. Better, after which it will be pure memery. Next week we will just be degenerate and we will do nothing but talk about culture things and make jokes about carbon removal, and it will be super — it will be super unhelpful but fun.
Siobhan Montoya Lavender: I’m about it. It’ll be — between the two, it’ll really balance out. Well, thanks, Asa, that has been a nice chat.
Asa Kamer: This has been a great chat. Thank you, Siobhan. And thanks everyone for listening. Talk to you next time.
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