Episode 155 of the Reversing Climate Change podcast. You can listen on Spotify (subscribe there for ad-free), Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you listen. Paid subscribers get the ad-free version right here on the page.
One of the beauties of regenerative agriculture is that it revisits traditional land stewardship practices and can leverage innovation to apply those principles on a broader scale. To that end, the team at Nori is scaling its efforts to reward farmers for the carbon they sequester in the process.
Rebekah Carlson is the Agriculture Supply Lead here at Nori, where she combines her experience in agronomy, soil science, and crop modeling to effectively enroll farmers into the Nori marketplace. On this episode of Reversing Climate Change, Rebekah joins Ross to discuss the fundamentals of agronomy, explaining how her experience as a crop consultant informs her work at Nori.
Rebekah describes how Nori leverages feedback from farmers to streamline the enrollment process, adding the Smart Defaults tool and integrating its system with other farm management platforms like Granular.
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Full Transcript
Ross Kenyon: Welcome to Season 2 of Reversing Climate Change. [Nori promotion cut from the transcript. It’s still in the audio, but it no longer applies.] And thank you so much for listening to another season of Reversing Climate Change.
Hello and welcome to the Reversing Climate Change podcast. I'm Ross Kenyon. Today I have with me Rebekah Carlson, Agriculture Supply Lead at Nori. Hey Rebekah.
Rebekah Carlson: Hey, Ross. So happy to be here.
Ross Kenyon: I'm happy to have you. You said before we started that you've been having a one-sided conversation with me, meaning that you've been listening to the podcast in preparation for this. This was not a condition of your employment. This is just because you enjoyed it, I hope.
Rebekah Carlson: No, actually I had to find [unclear] that I would listen to it every week. No, yes, I love listening to the show.
Ross Kenyon: Cool. We wanted to have you on for a whole bunch of reasons, including some that came up after we wanted to do this. So good timing all around. We have announced that we are hiring for a few roles that would be working with you. People who are supply account managers. You will be led by Rebekah who has been through that process and has recently been elevated somewhat to oversee that growth. Is that how you see it, Rebekah?
Rebekah Carlson: Yeah, basically I went through the first rodeos by account management and now can kind of help guide others. So that's what I'm planning on doing. I'm like really looking forward to it as well.
Ross Kenyon: It's nice to grow in this way. So yeah, we wanted to talk about what it's like on the supply side of Nori's marketplace, talk about these roles that we're hiring for. Hopefully someone out there listening is either a good fit for this position or knows people who are. We will see. Also, Rebekah, you've had an interesting way of getting here and [unclear] done a podcast episode on agronomy or something nearly so focused on agronomy. So I want to talk about what exactly that is, blah, blah, blah, stuff we will get to. But we try to start at the beginning. How did you end up at Nori? What led to you being hired here?
Rebekah Carlson: I was born in South Dakota. Okay, so my background is seemingly random but really fit for this mark position. My background, I did my undergrad in biochemistry, so really leaning into the science side. I ended up walking fields as a crop consultant in Nebraska, in central Nebraska, where my extended family lives, and just fell in love mostly with that rhythm of life. And my family's been farming there for five generations and has always had an eye on sustainability and just being a good steward of the land. And it just, that is such an energizing thing to me, but I really wanted to go back to school for like, I love science, I love agriculture, I love walking fields, yada, yada, which led me to my master's degree actually at the University of Minnesota, where I did a lot of research in sustainability and perennial agriculture, perennial cover crops, and worked with a program called Forever Green. And the Forever Green Initiative is basically how do we make changes on a landscape scale to have the ground covered at all times and working with farmers and not just with ideas. So that led me there, got my master's in 2018, and then...
jumped over to Boston and worked at MIT at a controlled environment lab. It was a little rodeo of its own sorts, but I really missed working with soil and beyond a controlled environment and agriculture. But in that process, I learned a lot about software and just this dynamic team of how do you get people who don't normally think about agriculture, like those East Coast engineers, architects, yada, yada, into a space that really brings innovation. I was a farmer first and I took that integration mindset and then found Nori and was able to get back to the fields really. COVID, but working with people who are in the fields.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, I think this introduction happened. Christophe was, I believe, in Minnesota, and had randomly met some people on a farm and were like, "Oh, you need to meet Rebekah." This is something like that. Is that [unclear]?
Rebekah Carlson: Actually, that's really that. He was chopping wood from my old lab mates random. And then my friend Dan was like, "Hey, Rebekah, I think I'm going to give your info for this job with Nori, which seems right up your alley." And I was like, "Oh my gosh, yes, please." Badda bing, badda boom, here we are.
Ross Kenyon: Badda bing, badda boom, yada yada. Yeah, we had a whole lexicon here we're adding to. And then also, were you telling me that you originally had wanted to be a doctor too?
Rebekah Carlson: Yeah, I did. I did. So yeah, I mean, like, when you're 18, like, I don't know, I want to be a doctor. I like science. I love helping people. And I love that time. It's kind of like, what's a profession where I can touch so many different types of people and so many different facets of life. And I was like, the only thing I thought at that point was like, oh, doctor, you will see every type of person. And then it's really cool because I was thinking about this in grad school. That's also agriculture. Everybody eats. Everybody deals with agriculture in some way and just like... from the ground, who grows it, how it's grown, how it's harvested, how it's eaten. It's all just so fascinating to me. So it still strikes that like helping a lot of people do one type of profession.
Ross Kenyon: Connection. That makes sense to me. Well, you've teased it a little bit. What exactly is agronomy and what does that discipline mean in the broadest sense?
Rebekah Carlson: In the broadest sense, it means your... in the field and cows are like on the other side of the field. And you're trying to install a moisture probe to get the data. Now, agronomy is just like the study of agriculture and the study of soil science and just like kind of breaking it down to its [unclear] of it. Why? How moisture affects things, how disease pressures affect things. And in the practical sense like agronomy, it's taking those to this information and helping guide farmers' decisions around.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, when I think about it, it has a very instrumental meaning. It's mostly in guiding farmers and what I often hear is farm level decisions. So that's right. It's actually about making practical decisions with four farmers combination. Yeah. I'm sorry. How exactly would that work? What would you do with a farmer? I imagine at this point they were clients of yours.
Rebekah Carlson: Yeah, so I worked with like an independent crop consultant in Nebraska, and it was such a blast. First of all, he'd wake up quite early. And we worked with farmers in the area. So from the counties around, you know, where my extended family's farms are. And he wake up early, early, early, and my boss is a former Marine. And so therefore we were like all former Marines in the work ethic sense. And just hit up like 30 fields a day and walk the fields. And I mean, different times of seasons apply different pressures, like, you know, stand counts of form, any like early season, weed pressures, what kind of herbicide to apply, those kinds of things. And then moving forward, like pest pressures, like how did pollination go? And then the [unclear] harvest. And what moisture do you apply because I was working in a very heavily irrigated area. So taking soil moisture samples was very key into guiding farmers on that decision, on those decisions as well.
Ross Kenyon: Hmm, farmer would hire you for something like that. If you're an outsider to agriculture, you might think that farmers already possess a lot of that knowledge or ability to acquire it, but maybe that's not the case. How does that work? How does someone decide they need an agronomist?
Rebekah Carlson: That's a great question. Well, as farms have scaled larger and larger, it's just like you have so many fields to cover. So you might have like 800 acres, but maybe only part of your field has Goss's wilt and you have to keep an eye on that. And a lot of farmers really know what's going on in their fields, but it's good to have the extra pair of eyes that's really trained to know the pressures and at what point to apply the fungicide or apply herbicide, that will just like help guide the decisions. 'Cause the farming, there's just like so, so much. So we're just kind of adding to the team process. And so how does like the farmer get that? Like, I don't know, word of mouth is how I was working. And I mean, I knew like half the guys I worked with, I've known since I was a child, just like in small area, small town, do you do good work? Good work spreads. But I mean, they hired my boss and I worked with my boss.
Ross Kenyon: And you had to learn how to say [unclear].
Rebekah Carlson: Marines that didn't go whoa. Oh yeah. From, I don't know, as a oofta, oofta.
Ross Kenyon: That was my aversion. That sounds like a Midwestern grunt when something bad happens. Is that?
Rebekah Carlson: Yeah. I was in the Swede capital of Nebraska, so you throw in all that Scandinavian verbiage.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah. Swede capital of Nebraska. All right. What a life you must have lived. That sounds interesting. Okay, well. That makes sense. And you have a background with software too. We're going to get into how these various pieces all lead up to something that makes sense for Nori, then what was your software experience like?
Rebekah Carlson: Ad hoc, I would say. So in grad school, I did a lot of like crop modeling. So that's just some special brand of software. So really getting familiar with kind of those interfaces and really how like coding works along with doing some stats in R. But that translated really well to when I was at MIT and some of like, as they were programming recipes to help control environment work. I was so curious and always asking our software guys to teach me and how I could do it on my own. So it wasn't this great formal training, but enough to know the ins and outs and scope of work that's behind some issues.
Ross Kenyon: So Rebekah, you have software experience here. Clearly have a lot of experience working with farmers. Nori sees this and says, "Hey, this is exactly the kind of person we want to be in business with," and then we hire you. And I imagine this process has evolved as time has gone on and we can work through this evolution of how Nori works with farmers and how we're doing software development. What was it like starting here? What was the beginning of applying your skills to the Nori, company, interface, etc.?
Rebekah Carlson: So when I first started at Nori, it was like, it was just like a lot of listening of like both to what the software was doing and learning the process and listening to the farmers and suppliers we were working with at the time. And when I started, we really had like a data point of one that had gone all the way through the Nori process. And so just kind of like walking through and identifying like, what does it take to get from like, hey, I'm interested in like enlisting my land, which is adopted these regenerative practices to the point of like, getting paid for this adoption via carbon offset, carbon Nori removal tonnes, or... which represent tonnes of carbon removed.
And so, after all the listening and then finding my voice, I'm like, oh, I can speak to this a little bit and speak to the farmers. It's really involved into this lovely, frustrating, wonderful, crazy translation of talking with new people and understanding, okay, you're gonna go through Nori via a data spec, which is where the software really comes in. Or we're gonna, unless you land in Nori, just like piece by piece and that looks a lot like being in a spreadsheet and entering in farmer's data and making sure we have record records in order to get them accurate estimates. And so taking all that experience like working with the men and women of the supply side and then being able to like go to the design meetings with our software team or like working with the guys on product to, to really just be like, "Hey, this is the experience and this is a big sticking point." Or like, "This isn't that big of a deal." And kind of just like being the voice of the farmers to the design process, which I think is something about Nori that I really, really value is that they do put the farmer first and have a real ear to the ground of the experience of the farmer and putting that as like a major design guiding fact.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, that's... I'm not sure why I started it off nearly so circumspect. When I think about some of these design choices and you can let me know if this is the wrong way to think about it, the two biggest schools of thought I think of are if you build it, they will come. And there's something that works about that sometimes. Granted, you shouldn't take advice from ghosts for building a company, but sometimes it works if you like build a dream. I think, yeah, what a line that was. Sorry, Rebekah. Yeah, baseball here too. Yeah. So like Steve Jobs has some line about how no one knew that they wanted an iPhone until I built one. And that's true. That guy just had vision and took a big risk like that and made it happen. And if he had just done like customer discovery and the sort of data driven validation process. No one would have ever said that they wanted such a thing because they didn't even know about it or it could have been a possibility.
And then on the other side, you absolutely are listening to your customers who know what they want or at least have ideas for making it better. And I think for a process like this, you almost certainly have to default to the latter. Right? Like we don't want to be in a position of just being like, none of us are farmers for the most part, but we're going to like ram this down your throat. That's wrong. Right.
Rebekah Carlson: Yeah, true. We don't want that. Definitely want to have a wall. I guess I am in the field, but listening to the farmers cannot be like, yes, this is exactly what you need. I've never done it, but like, for sure, this is what you, this will help you. Huh? I think that's why it's so great to be part of the pilot because we were building something. It's not like we're doing like thinking about it and like gathering all this information we're building it. And then as we are going through it with the farmers, specifically, using their feedback is huge. And so it's helpful because, I mean, it's pros and cons, right? Like we're getting something off the ground, it's going, we're building it, as we're flying, as everybody says, but that brings a lot of frustrations too, right? You're like, "Hey, we haven't figured this out, we need your help." And like, oh, this step is really difficult. Oh, this is hard. Oh, well, but we're still moving forward. And I think like that's the point where the feedback is really helpful because it's not intangible, it's very tangible.
Ross Kenyon: I would love a specific example. Do you happen to have one handy of where this happened?
Rebekah Carlson: So frustrations?
Ross Kenyon: I'm sure you have that. I'm right to have examples. More in the sense of us learning from something a user specifically on the supply side as a farmer has told us and said, oh, that's a great innovation, we should incorporate that.
Rebekah Carlson: We have this tool called Smart Defaults, which is helping farmers fill in historic data. And it's kind of around the idea, we hardly had internet in 2002, let alone this great farm software, online records of field management. So what we do is use satellite imagery to help [unclear] those fields. And as they're going through, farmers know their land pretty well. They've been farming it for a while and they can go through the satellite imagery. Like actually I know that I had corn there, not like the land. And so being able to like, they say it would be very helpful if I could just change that. It's like, oh yeah, of course. I mean, it's logical, but also good to hear it from the user experience. And just how farmers are thinking through the records and their data. It's different than just like year by year or field by field, it's like a very holistic approach of like, oh, I do this to my corn pretty much every year. I put on 200 pounds of N or nitrogen. And so like building the platform to kind of reflect that of the cadences that are rhythmic, I guess, or repeatable, then an asset to like have that input to build the process.
Ross Kenyon: And I'm trying to put myself in the position of someone for whom this information might be a bit newer. And I'm wondering if we should explain what the process is, looked like. I know we're still working towards what we hope it will become. What was the process for farmers enrolling in Nori's marketplace when we were getting going and when you started? What did it look...
Rebekah Carlson: It looks like a giant Google spreadsheet. Just like this overwhelming Google spreadsheet in front of you. Okay, there's 30 columns by 30 years that I need to fill up everything exactly as is. And that is, I mean, when I first opened this spreadsheet, I was like, heavens on high. This is work. Like just cell by cell. So being able to like reflect it's, we're always trying to straighten the balance of what the farmer's experience is. What is the right science behind it? Like where are the accurate places we need to have like the right amount of nitrogen, the right planting date. And then when verifiers look at it, like what are they looking for? So we want to strike the balance, like good science, good experience, good verification results. And so we've been able to find the holes. Like from now, this, like I was saying, the Smart Defaults tool to look at historical land management records has been built, I think since I've come. I know the product team has been working on it for a while. But integrating that into our product has been a huge time save for our farmers. Just looking at [unclear] spreadsheet with no help, we're giving them tools to help with the process.
Ross Kenyon: Is it safe to say that this development process involves sorting out where there's possibilities for increased automation and user experience? I recognize those two things are linked in some important ways. Is that what we're trying to do?
Rebekah Carlson: Yeah, we're trying to help with automation increase user experience, but also making sure the science behind it isn't flippant or filled with assumptions and it's reflective of what the farm is.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, there's a version where you could say we want it to be easier on farmers for we're going to drop 29 of these 30 columns and just see what happens. And that would be terrible. Like you didn't know.
Rebekah Carlson: Yeah, it's just like, I mean, like with farming, it takes work, right? It takes a lot of, you plant the seed, you wait for it to grow, it grows, then you harvest it with like, Nori, we're not just like, press a button, get paid, there's work to be done. And we want it to be optimized work, right? Effective work, but also it'll take a bit of time, a bit of time in like a few months to get from beginning to end.
Ross Kenyon: My understanding also is that us working with groups like Granular, which is a data platform that farmers can use, that we've been in this process of creating a link between these various software platforms so that farmers aren't entering in data multiple times. This data is portable and also still owned by the farmer and they're not losing their ownership of that data. And trying to make those systems work together, which is sometimes more difficult than it sounds to because data is often. Data are often in different configurations. I'm not a software guy, so feel free to explain it to me like I'm a child, although a child probably knows more about this than I do now, given what they learn in school. But it's like I'm a zygote.
Rebekah Carlson: Okay, great. You know nothing. I'm not even words. But anyways, with the, well first of all, data, like, Nori doesn't own farmers data ever. It's just, we use it to generate NRTs, but it's never something that's like, our asset. It's always the asset of the farmer. But like working with Granular, it's kind of trying to hit two birds with one stone, right? So Granular, we're wonderful, slash like other, you know, data spec, data platforms that we're working with. Farmers already have their data in their platform, so how great would it be, be if they've already done the work of entering their harvest dates and their yields, if that could just easily sync up to our platform. And that's what our product team is doing wonderful work on to try to make that a seamless process. Lots of learning, of course, in the meantime. But if it's stored in one software platform, can we easily just translate to ours so that we're not doubling up on our work?
Ross Kenyon: Yeah. And there's, there's so many apps like this. Can you call them by the way, agronomy apps or, or what do they call these farm management tools?
Rebekah Carlson: Management tools link. That works. Yeah. Yeah. Software packages on billion words.
Ross Kenyon: Oh yeah, I'm sure. So Nori's been, you know, we're friendly with a number of them and are always trying to figure out what makes sense for us to integrate with. But I think if you're not a software person, and I probably wouldn't have known this had I not worked at Nori, is that can be remarkably difficult to make various apps integrate and talk to one another in a way that is intelligible. Is that correct? Is it as hard as I imagine?
Rebekah Carlson: To a point, yes. It's kind of like you figure out, like we're using Granular right now to figure out the process. And so just like the first rodeo of anything that has a lot of kinks and stuff to work out. But then we're using that process and like open source to just have other platforms meet with it. So it does take work the first time around more work as we just figure out what it looks like for Granular as a proxy for all of our other software platforms we'll work with, to easily integrate. First, easier at second, moves on from there. But it does take, again, a bit of work.
Ross Kenyon: Well, where are we at right now in terms of enrolling farmers and the development of the software?
Rebekah Carlson: So where we're at right now is we have like robust tools that have great structure and they are just like needing time to... figure out the holes as well as time to just like get people through it. So it's really great because we have a lot of people who want to be running pretty quickly through our app. We just like don't have the personnel to teach people how to use it and then guide it, guide them through it. And with our product team, like we're not faced with this empty spreadsheet anymore. So like the process of data entry is, is a bit more streamlined. There's still a lot of room for growth and creative input into the process. But we're really, we've come a long way since March when I started to streamline the process, but also getting it to the point where we can filter through our suppliers who want to run their farms through quicker. And that takes people on our team, which is great. And so we'll be forward to building that out to help.
guide the farmers and just like working with, I've said farmers at least a billion times, but working with the farmers and suppliers and like learning their operations and getting their data into the platform, as well as like working with our other data platforms who are representative of many growers, right? So if we can teach. Like if I teach somebody how to fish, they can teach other people how to fish. And so, where I like get a point of.
Ross Kenyon: It could be scaling quickly, quite soon. Exciting.
Rebekah Carlson: It sure would, yeah.
Ross Kenyon: Sounds like a lot of this early learning is maybe even nearing its conclusion and will be [unclear] and not just focusing on making sure it works, but proving the way it works, moving faster, more reliably. I think we're all pretty spoiled at this point too with e-commerce. I want things to be seamless. I was, my wifi was cutting out the other day. I was trying to watch a show. And I was so crappy about it. I was so mean. I was like, [unclear] to work perfectly. Every time. I remember as a kid though, with 56K and it just like, nothing with like not even images would load. I'm so spoiled now, but we're spoiled. So like, that's the point, right?
Rebekah Carlson: I have a spreadsheet that doesn't load and I'm like, oh my gosh, what is happening? And then I go, well, whatever, patience is a virtue, I guess.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, yeah. So is that right? That's, that's sort of where Nori's at on some of that. Yeah, okay.
Rebekah Carlson: I mean, there's still plenty of learnings ahead. We're not closing chapters on our learnings by any means, but I think we're closing the chapter on this particular section. Really get you to a point that much better than I did before.
Ross Kenyon: Other cool tools that farmers are using that things similar to Nori, like are there apps that track farm biodiversity or water usage in novel ways.
Rebekah Carlson: Yes, I can't think of any specifically, which is probably bad of me, but I mean, there's a million, like farming apps can... I've tried so much. So. Yes, with the hesitation that which one specifically I cannot think of right now.
Ross Kenyon: How about Farmers Only? That's like one of the few contributions I have to that side of the businesses. I'm like, when the time comes, we must advertise on Farmers Only. Must advertise on Farmers Only.
Rebekah Carlson: And what I love about regenerative agriculture, it's not just like, oh my gosh, the innovation is crazy. It's just the traditional work that used to be done as a practice, the old school ways of having biodiversity in our farms and paying attention to, you know, soil health and it wasn't even like under the cool fun words like what's your soil health? It's just like you're paying attention to the good stewardship of your land and a lot of those practices are traditional and I love that we're revisiting that in a way that is [unclear] innovation, but be able to bring broader skills.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, it's a really funny horseshoe and maybe what we call conventional agriculture is more the aberration and the long-term trend. It was made out to be where you do have these traditional, diverse, polyculture, multiple income streams. It looks like Old MacDonald's farm. And now the tech isn't the problem. In some cases, the tech is bending that horseshoe around so it meets those traditional ways and is making it more profitable or easier to do that inside of a 21st century economy. Maybe? Something like that?
Rebekah Carlson: Yeah, maybe something like that. Bringing inspiration to it too. I guess. I love it if people have technology that is exciting to help reverse climate change, one might say, or technology to really capture the fact that these are really complex ways and you can contribute to how we're capturing carbon. You can do that, but you're getting back to the land in a way that's traditional and it's just this lovely balance, new and old, but I do love getting back to the land, as the thing that is like, is resilient and will always land.
Ross Kenyon: A nice sentiment. Well, for moving forward and these two supply account managers that Nori wants to hire, what can you tell our listeners about the kind of people we might like to meet and want to see apply? Oh, yeah. That's... Wait, one step even before that. What are these roles and what would they be doing? Maybe that's the same question.
Rebekah Carlson: So a day in the life of a supply account manager, it's just like the basis is just like having a genuine care for agriculture in a way of like, how do we make it more sustainable? How do we increase the stewardship of our land through the economic practices? That's the kind of tone we're looking for in people who care about soil and ag. But the day to day really just looks like you're talking to the farmers and helping them get their data and helping them come up with organized plans to get the data because sometimes it's sort of a shoebox, sometimes it's on hard software. It takes a lot to aggregate old records and then helping put the records in. And then as farmers, as well as helping other channel partners, people who like data managers who work with a lot of farmers, so it's like teaching one person to help others. The other side of that is just the creativity of taking those processes and applying them to what our product's looking like, finding holes in our methodology, like it's just something we've missed, should we do this later? Just always having this like tuned eye to blend of science, a blend of management and the blend of that.
Ross Kenyon: And where do you think we as Nori will be playing in the next year. What are you expecting for if someone were to join the team? What kinds of changes might they see on the supply side of the software?
Rebekah Carlson: I really want to get to the point where we have a well-oiled machine on croplands methodology. Like we have something that works that is scalable and like we, it's like in a good spot. So like in the next six months, I just want to get that well oiled. But we, off of that, there's like so many other ways that agriculture is sequestering carbon, whether that's with like ranch management, like grazelands, expanding beyond the US right now. We're only working with US farmers. And so taking it to scale with different channel partners that brings a lot of creativity to other ways that we're sequestering carbon via the whole slew of agriculture, not just croplands.
Ross Kenyon: Cool, well if that sounds like you, something that you're interested in, I know people out there listening want to join the Nori team because you email us from time to time and this is you or if you know someone for whom this job is a good fit, please let them know. The links are in the show notes to everything that we talked about, the apps to apply. Well thanks for coming on and chatting with me.
Rebekah Carlson: Thank you so much for having me. I was quite looking forward to this, so I'm glad I could get it on books.
Ross Kenyon: Me too, I'm excited as well.
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