If you don’t have access to public transportation or you’re looking for a climate-friendly alternative to Uber, then you may have considered renting one of Revel’s electric mopeds. But do micromobility companies like this actually make money? And how should micromobility fit into the larger ecosystem of getting from point A to point B?
Kate Knibbs is a Senior Writer at WIRED and the author of ‘Freedom, Mayhem, and the Uncertain Future of Revel’s Mopeds.’ On this bonus episode of Reversing Climate Change, Kate joins Ross and guest host Radhika Moolgavkar, Head of Supply and Methodology at Nori, to discuss micromobility, describing how mopeds and e-bikes should be a complement to mass transit—not the dominant form of getting around.
She offers insight on the potential profitability of a company like Revel, explaining how positioning itself as an electric vehicle company increases its chances of success and why safety issues are its greatest existential threat. Listen in to understand the role of subsidies in making micromobility ventures work and learn how Kate thinks about when to choose public transit, train travel, auto ownership, rideshare, or micromobility options.
More from the show
Ad-free episodes and other benefits come with a paid subscription.
Carbon Removal Newsroom, the news show that ran alongside this one, is over. Its episodes are still up, on the feed Climate Workers Anonymous now uses.
Carbon Removal Memes is still going.
Resources
Kate on Reversing Climate Change S2EP12
‘Freedom, Mayhem, and the Future of Revel’s Mopeds’ in WIRED
‘Farewell, Millennial Lifestyle Subsidy’ in The New York Times
Full Transcript
Alexsandra Guerra: You’re listening to the Reversing Climate Change podcast by the team at Nori, the carbon removal marketplace. This is a show about the innovators and entrepreneurs developing solutions to climate change.
Ross Kenyon: Hello and welcome to the Reversing Climate Change podcast. I’m Ross Kenyon, I’m the creative editor at Nori’s carbon removal marketplace. Radhika Moolgavkar, head of supply and methodology, is here co-hosting with me today. Hey, Radhika.
Radhika Moolgavkar: Hi, Ross. Thanks for having me again.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, I described you as having a transport policy background, which makes it sound very spaceport-y, spaceship-y, but I’m using that, yeah, to make you sound really cool.
Radhika Moolgavkar: It makes me sound like I might be more like Jeff Bezos than I really am.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, something about dropping the “-ation” at the end of “transportation” makes it sound way, way fancier, but still very important. We have an alumni coming back to this show — WIRED senior writer Kate Knibbs, returning. We did the show about a year ago, I think it was right as COVID was taking off. So I remember you mentioned that your partner, your husband, was quarantined and sick. Hopefully all better now. But he was, I think, the first person I met who had a direct COVID link.
Kate Knibbs: He was. That was the last time we spoke, and it was a very tumultuous period of, I think, everyone’s lives, but definitely mine. My husband is recovered, but he did have COVID. Yeah, he’s all better now, though, so that’s good. And we’re all fully vaccinated, so it feels like we’re turning a very positive corner.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, I think we all feel that sort of relief coming in. I loved that episode, it’s still one of my favorites. “The Hottest New Literary Genre Is Doomer Lit” was a piece that you wrote which absolutely caught my eye. I wanted to talk about cli-fi, climate fiction, all of the subgenres affiliated with that. And so if you’re listening for the first time and you like what we’re talking about, this episode’s going to be a little bit different, but you can definitely go back and listen to it, because I really enjoyed it when we talked kind of more [unclear]. Now you have a new piece that came out called “Freedom, Mayhem, and the Uncertain Future of Revel’s Zippy Mopeds.” So how is this — I think you’re a culture writer, I guess you can make anything culture, sure — but this seems like a new kind of beat for you, a little bit.
Kate Knibbs: Definitely, it’s slightly out of my beat, but I wrote it because I really loved riding mopeds. And I had sort of been searching for someone to do a deeper dive into the electric mopeds that are being popularized in big cities in the States, and I just decided to write it myself. I actually started reporting this piece before I even talked to you. I went to speak with the Revel founders for the first time in late February 2020, and then it ended up getting put on pause because of COVID, and I didn’t end up returning to it until the fall. And it was really interesting, because basically the company had gone through this completely wild summer in between and almost imploded. So it really changed the story that I ended up writing.
Ross Kenyon: What is different about these? I can’t really keep track of all the competitors for micromobility and these little scooters. All I know is that they look like they bleed money, because I only ever see them neglected. I once saw a guy run up and just kick one, like square on the frame of a bike, just because. I’ve seen pictures of them in weird places, thrown into waterways. Is anyone making money on these? Is this viable, or are they all just bleeding VC money and hoping that one of these takes off somewhere?
Kate Knibbs: For a long time, a lot of the kick scooter rental companies — like the scooters that I’m trying, I’m trying to figure out how to describe them in a way that makes sense to people who can’t see me attempting to make body movements like I’m riding them. But kick scooters are the scooters that have a handle and then a little skateboard pad, and those are more common. Those are probably the ones that you’ve seen people throw and kick, and people are generally pretty p*ssed off about them, because a lot of the startups who brought them to cities didn’t really think about how annoying they would be for pedestrians. So they just sort of are littered throughout the streets and are sometimes thought of as a nuisance. Those kick scooters are largely unprofitable, I believe, still, and they definitely were bleeding VC money.
The mopeds are also tough to make profitable, but Revel was profitable last summer for a brief period, and it doesn’t seem totally out of the range of possibility that they will become profitable. It’s just an expensive thing to run, so I think the margins are always going to be pretty slim. There’s a lot of upkeep on these vehicles because, as you were saying, they get worn out. Even if people aren’t actively trying to destroy them, there’s still a lot of mechanical maintenance that goes into keeping up a fleet of vehicles that people are riding all over the place. So I hope that they find a path to profitability, because I actually like the mopeds a lot more than I like the kick scooters.
I think they actually have a lot of functionality in certain cities, whereas the kick scooters — I guess they do too, but they’re sort of more for casual riding. And I personally have had to use the mopeds to get around Brooklyn just because of where I live and where I work; there isn’t an easier way. Sorry, I’m just kind of rambling, but this is a long-winded answer of saying it’s hard to make them profitable, but I think they potentially could be.
Radhika Moolgavkar: So Kate, I loved your piece. I particularly liked how you opened it up, because I could just imagine, like on a hot humid day, the wind in my hair kind of feeling — though these scooters don’t exist yet in Seattle. But I pictured it, it was a great start. As I was reading it, I was struck by some of the early days of Uber and Lyft, and how they had to subsidize the model to make it work, and then everybody wants it to continue to be subsidized. And now, as the reporting has been showing, they’ve increased prices, which is causing panic, and they’re still not profitable. So how do you think you scale something like this? Especially because this company, Revel, doesn’t want it to be a gig economy thing — they want their staff to be paid.
Kate Knibbs: I think the answer is their rides aren’t that cheap. They’re cheaper than Uber and Lyft right now, definitely, but they have gotten more expensive since they launched, and they need to be — they can’t afford to do it any other way. They’re also just going to keep taking huge losses, and as you said, it’s going to turn into a situation where eventually their customers get extremely upset when they have to jack up prices to survive. I think one of Revel’s biggest challenges is going to be the fact that it now has serious competitors. This summer, Lime just released its own moped fleet, and Lime doesn’t have the same commitment to not using gig workers. So they might have an easier time, and it’s also just a much bigger company.
They might be able to keep their prices lower than Revel, and Revel’s probably going to have to hope that people are as enthralled by the no-gig-economy hook as they are by really cheap moped rides. Because it’s going to be tough for them — Lime debuted its mopeds right before this article was being published. So I’m hoping I can do a follow-up in like a year or two, because I think it’s really going to change the marketplace. There wasn’t a big name in this marketplace until Lime came in. Revel is a very small company still, which is why I’m kind of rooting for them, because I like the idea of more smaller companies actually making a mark in the rideshare space. And I also do like that they are committed to not using gig workers. I think it’s genuinely an admirable stance for the company to take.
Radhika Moolgavkar: Yeah, I would say they certainly seem like they thought through a lot of the issues that some of the earlier micromobility companies did not, like working with the government rather than in opposition to the government in some ways. So I have a question, if you know: their bike service, the one you ended the piece with — has that taken off and helped Revel establish more of a foothold?
Kate Knibbs: I don’t think so. It’s still really small. There’s a rideshare coming with a fleet of Teslas, but it hasn’t even launched yet, because they’re actually running into regulatory issues in New York. And because they’re only doing it if New York approves it, they’ve been sort of stymied there. I’m not exactly sure if it will even happen now, because it seems like the city doesn’t want it to happen — they’re only giving X amount of new rideshare companies permission to launch. It’s still mainly the mopeds. The mopeds are the thing, as much as they are trying really hard to diversify. I think the mopeds are going to continue being the thing until either the rideshare gets permission — although I don’t even know how appealing that is. I don’t know that many people who are like, “I must ride in a Tesla,” especially because there’s a new rideshare co-op that just came out in New York called The Drivers Cooperative, that has a model where all the drivers own the company. So I feel like if people are looking for the ethical alternative to Uber and Lyft, there are already competitors. They might not be so keen on using Revel’s service.
The other thing that they’re doing is electric car charging stations, but that also hasn’t launched yet. So I feel like they have three different potential avenues to diversify, to get out of just being a moped company, but none of them have really taken off. Like the e-bike — I saw one e-bike, but it’s still a thing where there’s a very limited quantity and it’s just in New York. It hasn’t entered the other markets yet.
Ross Kenyon: I feel kind of stupid asking this, but these businesses seem impossible to me. I always thought that Uber and Lyft’s model was to bleed out money until self-driving cars were here and they could replace the sort of gig economy model, and then it’d just be robots, right? But how do you do that if you have guys driving around in vans picking up discarded scooters all over sidewalks? It seems like the interaction between software and the real world is really challenging, and because no one owns these things, they’re just kind of all over the place. It seems like they’re neglected. I don’t know, I don’t know that I would invest in a company like this. But it’s kind of a silly way to ask it — am I dumb?
Kate Knibbs: Okay, for the record: no, I don’t think so. But I just think there is a big difference between the kick scooters and mopeds. And I mean, I probably wouldn’t, and I’m not an investor, I don’t know how sound either model is. I think they’re both really challenging, but this one definitely makes more sense, especially because Revel is positioning itself, once it gets these other projects off the ground, as not so much being a micromobility company as being an electric vehicle company. And I don’t think it’s controversial to say that electric vehicles definitely are the way we’re headed in terms of individual transportation.
And so if they get out far enough ahead of it, I could see them positioning themselves really well in the electric vehicle charging space, and then it won’t really matter that the mopeds end up not being that profitable. But again, I really like the mopeds. I also think that e-bikes and mopeds are going to be important to the future of dense cities. So it doesn’t seem impossible to me that a company like this has a successful future. But again, yeah, I don’t know. You’re definitely not stupid. I think it would be stupid to just throw a bunch of money into this without thinking it through.
Ross Kenyon: You have a great comparison in the piece, which labels some of these transportation solutions as sorbet. How do you frame what micromobility is supposed to replace inside of urban environments, or maybe even other environments as well?
Kate Knibbs: I think it is the sorbet. I don’t think we need or should want a world where micromobility is the dominant form of getting around. I think what we really need in every global city, including every American city, is reliable public transport. Public transport is the thing — mass transit is absolutely necessary to a thriving city. If these ended up replacing trains and buses, I think it would be a disaster. We would just end up with our streets super crowded with scooters, and it would be annoying.
And I think they’re trying to get rid of scooters there. It really is awful, isn’t it? Nothing but scooters in Hanoi. Yeah, I don’t think that we should want micromobility to become the dominant form of mobility. I’m 100% in support of investing in green and efficient and smart mass transit. That said, until our mass transit systems are fixed and fully funded, I do think that small electric vehicles like e-bikes and electric mopeds are a good alternative to using gas-based rideshares. I would rather see people on them than streets full of Ubers.
Ross Kenyon: Just one quick clarifying question. I use “scooters” too broadly. I want to talk about — you know, I’m talking about like a little Vespa, but you sit down; a moped. What kind of thing are you talking about that Hanoi is trying to get rid of?
Kate Knibbs: What do you mean, like a push scooter?
Ross Kenyon: Yeah.
Kate Knibbs: Oh wow.
Radhika Moolgavkar: Okay, Ross’s mind is blown right now. What’s going to happen? Okay, go ahead.
Ross Kenyon: [unclear] Make sure I have that right?
Radhika Moolgavkar: Yeah, no, I had another question — my mind has gone in multiple different directions. But I think one of the things that I was curious about, and maybe this has been answered already, but can a Revel or a micromobility company like that really scale in a medium-sized city? Because it feels like you need the right type of population density. So to me, when I think about it, in some ways I think it’s a great solution for a smaller city that can’t afford mass transit in a meaningful way. But on the other hand, can a company like that scale when you don’t have the population density to make it profitable?
Kate Knibbs: Yeah, I don’t know. There’s also the issue of whether — you know, there might be a city that’s perfect in every way for Revel to flourish, but if it’s super cold all the time, no one wants to be on a moped. So I don’t know. They really struggled in Austin, which had the weather and seemed like the right size, and also seemed like it had a good population because there’s a lot of tech-y people who like taking a chance on new startups. But they just couldn’t make enough inroads to convince people to switch from driving, and they had to pull out. So finding the right cities to operate in is really important. Honestly, Seattle might be a good one. Do you still have e-bikes in Seattle?
Radhika Moolgavkar: Yeah, I mean, yes, and we have scooters. But you know, Seattle’s had a long history of fighting with, I think, their micromobility folks because of safety issues and helmet issues, which you talked about. And I think we are very late in adopting scooters. And, you know, that thing you were talking about, the electric stand-up push, whatever you want to call them — now, to your point earlier, they’re all over our city, littering our city, and I think people are kind of frustrated with them. Our CEO uses it regularly, so it is a solution that for some people is positive. [unclear] out on those a lot. I’ve heard a couple of times he showed up and he’s like, “I’m getting on the scooter to get to work on time.”
Ross Kenyon: I rode one of those once or twice in Denver and I felt like my life was seriously at risk. They would accelerate really fast, and I’m, like, halfway coordinated — I think people might really hurt themselves. And this has been a problem for Revel, it seems.
Kate Knibbs: Oh yeah. I mean, for me, the big existential threat to Revel will always be safety, even though cars are really dangerous too. So sometimes I feel a little bad that they are so scrutinized because of their safety record. I shouldn’t say I feel bad, though, because they deserve to be scrutinized because of their safety record, and it is a legitimately very dangerous way to get around if you don’t know how to drive a moped. And the whole premise of Revel succeeding is that a bunch of people have to learn how to drive mopeds. So there’s inevitably going to be safety issues. I really wish that they would make their driving classes mandatory, even though that would be really hard to scale. They have virtual classes now, but I think that you sort of need to do it in person.
I already knew how to ride a moped, although I learned by basically riding them around Southeast Asia when I shouldn’t have, because I didn’t know how, and I crashed once or twice over there. Yeah, it wasn’t safe when I learned. But when Revel arrived, I felt comfortable getting on it, only because I already knew how to drive a moped and I was comfortable. And a lot of my friends think it’s completely reckless to ride one in New York. Probably more than 50% of my friends won’t ride Revels, and I don’t think that’s unreasonable. I think it’s a good thing that people are cautious, because it’s a motorized vehicle and you’re riding in the street with cars and trucks.
And I mean, I’m watching very closely this summer to see what happens, because their ridership really jumps up during the summertime, and this is the first summer since they implemented their new safety measures. So it’s going to be like the first real stress test for whether they are sufficient. And if they’re not, then the company is probably not going to be around for much longer, whether they voluntarily pull themselves off the streets or whether the city does it. There’s definitely a lot of people watching very closely, so we’ll see what happens.
Radhika Moolgavkar: One thing I was curious about was, you mentioned a lot of the statistics in New York City. Did they see similar types of accidents and injuries and, unfortunately, death in some of the other cities they launched in? Or was it just New York?
Kate Knibbs: So New York was the only city with fatalities. In the fall there was a situation where there was one fatality in Washington, DC, but it wasn’t — it was a situation where someone riding a Revel ended up having an encounter with a police officer. So it wasn’t the same thing; it wasn’t an accident, it wasn’t a crash. But New York has by far the biggest fleet and it has by far the most established ridership, and so I think that’s why there are only fatalities in New York. It’s just because it’s not as frequently used in Miami and some of the other cities. But I’m sure there were injuries — I just didn’t end up grabbing all the data. It was actually surprisingly hard to get all of the data for that; Revel’s own safety report was focused on New York. So, I mean, in the other cities people need to be just as cautious — in San Francisco and Oakland and Miami and Washington, DC — as they are in New York. It just so happens that all the fatalities were in New York.
Ross Kenyon: Radhika, you have a background in this, out of city-level planning. How do you think cities should be thinking about this stuff, I guess? Kate, you’re welcome to chime in here too. Am I interviewing Radhika now?
Radhika Moolgavkar: Yeah, all of a sudden the podcast has been turned on me. I’ve thought about it a lot. I think one of the challenges — and that’s what I was kind of alluding to earlier — is that to make anything like this successful you need a certain amount of population density, or you need heavy, heavy subsidies. And so, how you balance that… I mean, even if you look in Europe, which is so vaunted, it’s not like all parts of London are accessible by the Tube, or all parts of Madrid are accessible by their transit system. It’s the same here. And so I think what it boils down to is a real commitment at a policy level to subsidize what is right, both in terms of, I think, overall human health — which is not sitting in cars and traffic for multiple hours — and also the environmental impacts of putting people into mass transit.
And as a side note, what I worry about more than anything right now is the fact that COVID has just made mass transit kind of an anathema to many, many people. They’re very nervous about returning. And at least in the city of Seattle and King County, it took us years to build our ridership to the point that it’s at, and then to just lose them overnight is a huge blow. And then the second thing I think about is, as budgets get cut because of COVID — if they get cut because of COVID at the local level, there has to be the policy priority that transit just is not something that you cut.
And then there’s a space for this micromobility, for, as Kate kind of talked about, more local rides — the last mile. We talked a lot about the last-mile issue in transit, where you get dropped off but you’re a mile from your home and you don’t want to walk it. So instead of having a car pick you up, could you have a moped, like an electric moped, a Revel, play a role in that? So I think there are lots of interesting creative ways to go, but the investment at the level of the government is not always there, and I think it’s going to be a real uphill battle in the next two to three years with all the issues with COVID and funding and things like that.
Kate Knibbs: Definitely. The reason I ended up becoming such a Revel fan is because I happened to live in two of the neighborhoods in Brooklyn with the worst transit for getting around within Brooklyn. And where I currently live, I live over a mile from the subway, which is rare, but it has made me feel an acute need for this kind of solution. I would prefer if the subway was closer, don’t get me wrong. In my ideal world the subway would be closer, or they would bring back — there used to be this tram system that went through the neighborhood that I live in. There’s a really old dilapidated tram from like the 1940s that’s still there behind the grocery store, and I would love it if they brought the tram back. It would be better than Revel.
I definitely don’t want to give the impression that I’m hoping that private micromobility companies take over cities, because that sounds horrible. I hope, as you’re saying, that cities, even if they are constrained by budget cuts, make a huge priority out of retaining and gaining riders on their transit systems. But I do think, as they do that — even after they do that — if we’re going to have private companies offering mobility options, I would much rather have companies like Revel, that offer as green of vehicles as you can get other than electric bikes and have some hostility towards the gig economy, operating.
Ross Kenyon: I have very mixed feelings on this, because on the one hand I’m pretty bought into the ideology of the automobile. I like that you have a personal transportation unit — God, that makes me sound like a robot. I like the idea of having a personal vehicle, because I was an intern in DC once upon a time, taking the Metro wearing a cheap polyester suit, stuck underneath someone’s armpit, hating life in the summer in DC and being like, “This is the future liberals want. It’s terrible, I don’t want this. I would rather be in my own car.” So I think sometimes people over-glamorize how great public transport can be. But then also, I don’t know, I’ve also been in places where it’s nicer and works better than others.
If I had to commute an hour each day in a car — like growing up, a lot of time in Orange County, or like Phoenix, and you’re in the car for an hour, hour and a half — I’m sure that was time that my dad could have been home rather than commuting. So I don’t know, I have mixed feelings on it. But I sort of love the American obsession with the car. I like it. I can be critical of it too. I’m not willing to get rid of it yet. Is this maybe a little bit of a bridge, or is it just me being an American individualist? And you can cast me into outer darkness if necessary.
Kate Knibbs: Ha ha. I don’t think we can get rid of cars even if everyone really wanted to. This entire country was literally designed for automobiles. I think in dense cities like New York — and, I know that probably going on the train in DC sucks, but I’m pretty sure if you were commuting downtown it would have been like a parking nightmare too. And you would definitely, yeah, be driving around in circles cursing, or paying like [unclear] or something.
Yeah, I think in major cities we definitely need to rethink car use and minimize car use and incentivize public transit. But in Orange County and more spread-out cities, and in any place that’s suburban or rural, I don’t see us getting rid of cars anytime soon. I think that’s impossible. I think it will be shifting from gas to electric, but yeah, we need them. The highways connect the different places in the country. And I mean, I love a train, I really do, and I hope that Mayor Pete figures out a way to implement a better train system, but it’s not going to replace cars. It’s just not.
It’s also, when it comes to getting goods around, trucking is often a lot more efficient and just makes way more logistical sense than sending commercial goods on trains, because trains don’t go everywhere. So I’m definitely not advocating for the abolishment of cars, and I want to make that really clear, because I just wrote an article recently about people who eat bugs, and this whole segment of the internet thought that I was attempting to ban meat, which I wasn’t. And now I’m like, oh my God, this is the thesis of… my articles can get interpreted in really wild ways. I’m not trying to say that because I think Revel can be a benefit to dense cities, cars should not exist, because I’m definitely not.
And actually, I was just telling you guys that I’m moving to Chicago, where I’m buying my first car as an adult when I move to Chicago, just because I’m moving to a neighborhood that is not particularly well served by public transit. And it’s really cold there, so I want to walk less. And I’m having a baby, and I think taking a baby on public transit is a whole different ball game than just taking yourself. So yeah, I’m not a car hater. I do think that the urban centers of America would be better served if their streets were more attuned to pedestrian needs than strictly to car needs. But we need cars.
Ross Kenyon: I don’t know if you saw that recent New York Times article, Kate — this is kind of reflecting back on how the millennial lifestyle subsidy is going away. I don’t know if you saw that column, but I was curious about it, because do you think, just generally speaking, these solutions — if millennials and Gen Z, which is not… neither of which is my generation… will they embrace these things if they cost what they need to cost? I mean, we talked about it a little bit.
Kate Knibbs: But yes, I think that millennials and Gen Z aren’t extreme bargain hunters who only want to take the cheapest form of transportation. I thought that article had a lot of insights, but I thought the framing was odd. I don’t think you can talk about a millennial lifestyle subsidy without talking about why millennials needed their lifestyles to be subsidized: they don’t have any money. And it depends what these things need to cost. What’s happening right now with Uber and Lyft — they’re substantially more expensive, but the drivers are still not getting compensated appropriately, so the cost should possibly be even higher. What’s happening with a service like Revel — that might be too expensive for certain people, just depending on their budget. But I don’t think people will be philosophically opposed to using it because they feel like they’re getting ripped off, necessarily.
I think a lot of the services that were offering super discounted food delivery and rideshares, they actively courted people with those low prices and then people got accustomed to them. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that people thought that was what they should cost.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, good point. There was always something wrong with taking a six dollar Uber for 20 miles, but it felt so good. You’re like, what a deal!
Kate Knibbs: I know, I know. That’s actually been a big problem for me in Brooklyn, because I can’t ride Revel anymore because I’m pregnant, right? And I was relying on it, and on my bike, which I also can’t really ride, to get to doctors’ appointments. And now I have to take an Uber and it is costing me a lot of money. I’m not happy about it, but I have no other option. That’s the other thing — it’s like, are they using these lifestyle startups? Why are they using them? For me, I’m not using Uber because I’m too lazy to take public transit; there literally isn’t a public transit option. If there was, I would definitely take it, because I can’t really even afford to go to my doctor’s appointment.
Ross Kenyon: I just want to wish Kate the best of luck with the baby and the move. Since she told all of our audience about it, I feel like I can say this to her. So congratulations, and all the best.
Kate Knibbs: Thank you so much. And I know I need to keep on my tradition of coming on this show when I’m in the middle of extremely turbulent personal [unclear]. Check in with me from now on — I’m sure something else will be going on.
Ross Kenyon: Really? We should check in with you the day after the baby’s born.
Kate Knibbs: I mean, if you really want.
Ross Kenyon: [unclear] For people to keep up with your work, Kate, what’s the best way for them to do so?
Kate Knibbs: Well, I write for WIRED, so if you go to WIRED and search for my articles… I also have a Twitter. My Twitter handle is just my last name, which is Knibbs, which is K-N-I-B-B-S. So it’s @knibbs. And I usually post links to my stories on my account, but I also post a bunch of really ridiculous stuff, just a warning. And yeah, that’s probably it.
Ross Kenyon: Well, thanks for coming back. It’s always nice to have alumni back on this show, and I’m sure we will have you back in the future.
Kate Knibbs: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed our conversation.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, sorry I just opined wildly on the car. I’m going to use this opportunity to make an adjacent commentary. But if you like things of that nature, please give us a great rating and review on Apple Podcasts. Send this to a friend interested in why all those scooters are all over the place. And thank you so much for listening.
Thank you so much for listening. If you like the show, please rate and review it in Apple Podcasts and/or Stitcher. It really helps us a lot to get this content to a wider audience. If you think what we’re doing is useful, interesting, fun — hopefully all three — we appreciate your rating and review. You can keep up with Nori at nori.com, where there is a newsletter. That’s nori.com. Subscribe. There’s podcasts, there’s a whole bunch else. Or you can send us an email at podcast@nori.com. We are also now on Patreon at patreon.com/nori podcasts, if you’d like more content, engagement, and community. And thank you so much for your support.
