This is episode #426 of the Reversing Climate Change podcast. You can listen on Spotify (become a paid subscriber there for its ad-free version), Apple Podcasts, YouTube, or wherever else you listen. Substack paid subscribers get the ad-free version right here on the page.
What happens when you ask Dimitry Gershenson how he's doing? He tells you. This confuses people at parties, and by his account it works surprisingly well on investors.
Today's guest is Dimitry Gershenson, the co-founder and CEO of Enduring Planet, which provides "founder-friendly working capital and financial advisory services to climate startups and SMBs," often lending against a government grant or contract. They recently closed a second fund more than twice the size of their first.
We get into why so much climate content reads like it went through legal, the op-ed on impact investing in an age of autocracy he held back until his fund closed (a major investor bailed anyway), how much (or how little) of his work runs on anger, and what being on the autism spectrum is like while running a company of almost 120 people.
And Dimitry tells the story of a field trip with his old Berkeley professor John Harte, who gave the bleakest two-word summary of climate change I've heard in a while, followed by a surprisingly useful second answer.
Full disclosure: I have a referral agreement with Enduring Planet, so if you go talk to them, tell them I sent you.
Links
Courageous Capital: Impact investing in an age of autocracy, Dimitry Gershenson and Jed Emerson, ImpactAlpha
Take risk, act swiftly and seven other tips for deploying catalytic capital the right way, Dimitry Gershenson, ImpactAlpha
With $12M second fund, fintech startup aims to pump more cash into climate entrepreneurs, GeekWire
Radical Candor, Kim Scott
Resources
This episode's page on the web
Subscribe to the Reversing Climate Change Substack
Books from the show, at Bookshop
My other show, Climate Workers Anonymous
Full Transcript
Host introduction
Ross Kenyon: Hello. Thanks so much for listening to Reversing Climate Change. This is Ross Kenyon, the host
I help startups in climate tech at the overlap of commercial strategy and storytelling
Had a number of shows like this recently where they're with friends that for some reason it just takes a million years to get this thing in the can because we can just kinda go and talk about anything. But I'm really happy that we waited until just now. The episode is really special. I think we went to some places neither of us expected to go.
A lot of stuff about neurodiversity, makes this a cool show
Before I tell you about today's guest, if you're on Substack, you should follow me, Ross Kenyon. You should also subscribe to Reversing Climate Change. Carbon Removal Memes is on there, Climate Workers Anonymous. Basically, a lot of the art projects that I'm working on, they find their way over to Substack.
So if you wanna keep up to date with what I'm doing, if you wanna participate, if you want special content that's only available to paid subscribers, that is available. It's not very much In any case, Dimitry Gershenson is today's guest on Reversing Climate Change.
Dimitry is the co-founder and CEO of Enduring Planet
Enduring Planet is an absolute institution in climate tech. If you have, a government grant or a commercial deal that needs lending against, there's a good chance that you've already spoken with Dimitry and/or his colleagues about whether or not Enduring Planet is a good fit for you
I have a referral agreement with Enduring Planet,... So if you want to go talk to them and say that Ross sent you, I certainly would not advise you not to do that, and that's most welcome.
I always like to be clear when there is a professional relationship between myself and guests
But I also think it's clear within about 30 seconds of listening that Dimitry did not buy his way onto the show, Dimitry has gotten here by his own merits because he's a, a clever guy with a lot to say, and we say it. We kinda say everything. I respect when people can come on the show and share a lot about themselves and about how they think and why they do what they do and how they see the world in ways that are not always immediately, uh, beneficial.
Pretty hard to share critical information, especially of those with power. This is not a surprise, right? Uh, you don't necessarily want to bite the hand that feeds, and that means that people are really nice to organizations that sometimes should have their hands bitten.
It's not always that great to be the possessor of the mouth that does the biting
And that imagery is maybe not even correct it has a violence to it that I don't mean to convey. It's, it's more just truth telling I think is a really hard thing to do, and there's not that many people who feel, uh, empowered to be, um, honest about what they see and who they are and, and why this work matters and what it actually takes to do this work correctly, to have a chance at getting where we need to go successfully and I like that Dimitry is able to hang on that level.
Of all the silver linings that I'm grateful for For being more independent, I think the freedom that comes with being free, I suppose, is being able to speak honestly about how I see things and not worry so much about whether or not this is immediately going to gin up more sales or harm some numbers or maybe make someone in a position of power a little bit uncomfortable and therefore I won't get invited to the fancy breakfast at Climate Week that I was hoping to get to.
And, uh, I, I don't have time for that. I don't think the world has time for it. I don't, I don't care. And I like when people are no longer playing that game as much, even though sometimes it means that you don't get to go to the super nice breakfast where they make a crepe exactly the way that you want it.
Um, but whatever, you can get your own crepe. It's fine. Tell the truth about climate. Dimitry, thanks for being on. So happy that you're here. We finally did it. We locked it down. It's in the can. It's now published. We can wipe our brows in relief. Here's the episode with Dimitry Gershenson. Thanks for listening. Hope you enjoy.
The episode
Ross Kenyon: I'm at the bleep. The, this is, this is a PG-13 kinda, kinda show here,
Dimitry Gershenson: doing it live.
Ross Kenyon: We're Doing doing a lot... I don't know how they do things down in Portland, but we run a clean show here
Dimitry Gershenson: Let's see. Well, you know, I'll try to keep my jersey down and, and my, like, responsible dad up
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, I think Portland is probably s- strikes you as squeaky clean and the Jersey in you is probably has a lot of culture shock
Dimitry Gershenson: You know? It's, uh, it's interesting. I have lots of cultures that I, uh, uh, s- align with or assign myself to 'cause I'm, like, an immigrant and I, like, grew up in Jersey and I lived in California for a long time. I lived overseas. Now I live in Portland. And, um, but yeah, the propensity for But speaking vul- vul- with some vulgarity is definitely, I think, a Jersey, a Jersey thing
Ross Kenyon: It isn't just vulgarity. I associate you as one of the few people that will publicly give a fairly real take on the state of the world and politics and how that interacts with climate investment and climate tech broadly. I feel like most of the people that we know feel that they need to be much more careful about their rhetoric in public than maybe you do.
Is that even an accurate way of understanding you?
Dimitry Gershenson: Um, yeah. I mean, I-- It's interesting. When you put it that way, I feel kind of irresponsible. I, uh...
Ross Kenyon: it in a more heroic way if you'd like
Dimitry Gershenson: No, no, no, not at all. I, uh, we're real talk here, bro. We're doing real
Ross Kenyon: talk. Let's, yeah, tell me
Dimitry Gershenson: I think, I think, uh, I have existed in, like, heavily manicured spaces before and, uh, you know, I spent five years working in big tech and, uh, every word that came out of my mouth in a public setting was, like, vetted and reviewed by layers and layers and layers of people, and anything remotely controversial was, like, not really allowed.
And I think that, um, the problems we work on are urgent, complex, but sometimes, like, really simple in, in ways that I think people struggle with. And, uh, what we don't have time for is, like, tiptoeing around reality. Um, and I think oftentimes because content is so manicured, uh, people also make choices about whether, you know, either their investments or their operating decisions as founders or where they work or...
Like, people make choices based on manicured content that then I think does the-- them or the service or the space or the sector a disservice. And, uh, I think that when the world's on fire, there's, like, a stronger argument to be had for taking a more, I don't know if, like, courageous is really even the term, right?
Like, I think it's just like- Let's put all the bullshit aside and just do the work And like when we know something's not working, why don't we say it's not working so we can do it better? Like why keep dancing around it and pretending like it is?
Ross Kenyon: It's a hard problem to deal with personally too. Plenty of us know what's wrong with us. Do we work to fix it? Can we stare it in the mirror? Like, still really hard
Dimitry Gershenson: Yep. And, and it, it's also, I think, like part of the thing is that people worry about, um, being wrong, and that's fair. But like, how, how will you know that you're wrong unless you say the thing and somebody says, "Well, hey, I, I actually disagree with you." And then you can, you can have a change of thought. You, you know, you can still like approach a thing with conviction and then if somebody presents you with new evidence so you can be like, "Oh, well shit.
I probably should have thought about that and now I do, and so now I have conviction in this new stance, which is an evolved version of the old stance."
Ross Kenyon: Enduring Planet is something like 120 people now. Is this conservatism an issue of size? At some point, do you get big enough that you start respecting your fiduciary duty or your duty of care or something to, uh, investors and contracts that you just need to tighten up and think, "We can't rock the boat anymore, even if we have to manicure everything.
We kind of have to play ball or we're not gonna have an impact, and there's a lot of people I'm responsible for and I can't do this anymore." Is that what happens at these companies or is it something else?
Dimitry Gershenson: I mean, I think it's always a thoughtful choice. Like, even in our case when I... It's not like I'm out there just, like, spewing nonsense. Uh,
Ross Kenyon: I don't think you
Dimitry Gershenson: there are... No,
Ross Kenyon: not saying this.
Dimitry Gershenson: I know. I know, But, but like, e- e- nine... I mean, with the exception of, like, me being in a room and being caught off guard, like, almost every statement that I make has a couple people look at it, right?
We still do that, but we're fast and we also have a different set of values. And, um, and sometimes I'm like, "I feel very strongly about this, so unless somebody is, like, super opposed, I'm gonna go do it." Um, and I'll, I'll give you an example, right? So, uh, in Earlier this year, I co-authored a piece with Jed Emerson on how impact investing sort of like can be part of the toolkit in the fight against autocracy, and how people with an impact lens can allocate cap- uh, capital, not just to like offset where, you know, said government might be pulling back, but also in, in a way to like sort of build resistance against autocracy and against the actions of autocracy.
And that piece, I would say, is like politically sensitive, right? It doesn't name names, but I don't, I don't think you have to name names. Like, it's pretty, pretty fucking obvious what we're talking about
Ross Kenyon: is
Dimitry Gershenson: Yeah. Yeah. And so, um, we spent quite a bit of time like talking about it and deciding, okay, what's the timing for publishing this, and is it even worth saying?
Is it like a thing that needs to be said? Don't people know some of this stuff? And we had all those conversations, but we did it anyway, uh, because we then came to consensus that like, actually this is a message that matters to us. This is a message that... And like, you know, and I didn't publish it as Enduring Planet, right?
To be clear. Like, it was like, uh, me co-authoring a thing with another person in an op-ed format. Um, but part of the challenge is that like, what I say is a reflection of, to some degree of my company. Um, and as much as I may sometimes want to separate those two, you kind of can't. And I think to your question, like the, the challenge with organizations as they get bigger is that more and more people have a say, and m- more, it's more and more likely that people talk each other out of things, and it's more likely that people like raise other risks, right?
So there's like, uh, it's, but it doesn't necessarily make the process better because what happens is that unless you're very, very clear on the kind of values you want to espouse, it becomes really, really easy to just default to like, "Let's not say anything." And then what happens is you, you end up losing those, the reflection of those values publicly, and you start to become this like, you know, the like corporate speak machine where it's like, "Yeah, we acknowledge, but we don't take responsib-" Whatever, whatever it is, right?
Like, that's where it ends up. And I think that's really, uh... I think it's a bummer. I think it's a big bummer
Ross Kenyon: Would you say your values are?
Dimitry Gershenson: Oh, man. Um, well, I'm gonna s- this-- in this case, I'm gonna separate my values from my corporate values,
Ross Kenyon: Noted
Dimitry Gershenson: Um, uh, and so, and I can actually tell you, 'cause we have, uh, we have seven values that, um, we have sort of collectively agreed on at Enduring Planet, um, and that we manage to hire to, like these are the things we care about.
Um, you want me to just read them to you?
Ross Kenyon: Sure
Dimitry Gershenson: Uh, so the first is to be transparent, authentic, and accountable. The second is to empower others to succeed. Uh, third is focus on climate. Four is prioritize inclusion. Five is always seek improvement. Six is take care of ourselves, our families, and one another. And seven is delight the customer.
And these are not in order of importance. They're all important
Ross Kenyon: Do you feel like your personal values that you're referring to here diverge in some important way from these corporate values?
Dimitry Gershenson: Mm, no. No, I, I mean, I don't, I don't think I could run a company where my personal values, like divorced. I think that, um, I have some personal values that, uh, maybe are not appropriate to a corporate setting, right? And so, um, like my, I don't know, political identity is like I, I work in a team of now almost 120 people that live in all sorts of parts of the world, and like where my politics sit are kind of not relevant.
And so, um, they're not part of our value set. We're not like, "Oh yeah, fuck fascism," in our corporate values
Ross Kenyon: I'm sure some companies do that. I wonder how it plays out. Of course, it is polarizing. You will attract a certain kind of person who will like you more, and you will repel others who will not want anything to do with you. And does that on net make it a better place to work or a, a more profitable company, or ideally both? I don't know.
Dimitry Gershenson: I think the, I think that, um, what, what really matters is that the values you put on paper are the values that you practice. And what, what I think breaks organizations is the dissonance between the two. And it doesn't necessarily mean that they break, like, financially. Like, you can have a... I mean, I can name examples of successful companies that have written values that are materially different from what they practice day to day.
And, uh, what that, what, what that ends up doing is, like, it-- for anybody who's values driven who works for you, once they experience that disconnect, it becomes really hard to work at that place
Ross Kenyon: when you're writing pieces like these two ImpactAlpha pieces that you wrote or co-wrote, um, you think that is, something that you had to do moonlighting essentially. It was not an Enduring Planet thing that you did, but you felt like it was still important for you to communicate something that was values-driven to your industry peers that maybe they've lost sight of or have downplayed to be successful at company politics or, uh, business development or, something like that. Like, why, why do it in this way? Do you feel like you have... Is it, like, good for you to do this? Do you feel like actually is beneficial to Enduring Planet and/or yourself, or is it a big risk that you opened up, or did anything good happen as a result of this?
Dimitry Gershenson: Yes.
Ross Kenyon: It's like
17 questions in there, so you can take your
Dimitry Gershenson: I th- well, I think it's actually yes to all of those, right? Like, I think that, um, uh... I guess I can sort of lay out our, our thought process here. So, you know, in both of these cases that you're talking about, the sort of doing catalytic capital, right, and thinking about impact investing as an antidote to autocracy.
In both of those cases, these are topics that I've spent a lot of time thinking about, and they were, like, top of mind for me. They were also in part, like, a response to the experience that we and others are having in the market that we then talk about, right? So like, um
It, this, this was not based on theory. This was, like, very much a reflection of lived experience. And not just ours, but, like, other fund managers, other founders. I think there's, in this current kind of political, economic, temporal moment, this thing right now that we exist in, there's a lot of frustration with the, what I would call, like, the impact finance industry, and its participation in spaces where there is urgency, right?
Like, climate is urgent And the fact that, you know, money doesn't flow as much as it should, the fact that people are pulling back because of what the administration is doing, the fact that, you know, people purport to acting a certain way and then don't, those are all things that need to change for us to be successful.
And, um, and those are hard things to say, right? Like, they're hard things to say publicly. And honestly, like the Catalytic Capital piece, I was like sitting around over the Christmas holidays last year, and I was like really mad about something. And I was like, "I want to put this down on paper and see how it feels."
And I did, and then I shared it with my co-founder Erin, because she's like worked a lot in catalytic finance and raised a lot of catalytic money, and we sort of like, we were like, "Are these the... Are these true points?" And also like even though we're not a catalytic investor, can we stand behind these points?
Are we fast enough? Are we transparent enough? Do we, do we s- do the work that we say we're gonna do? Do we show up in the way that we pro- purport to? Do we like... Do we live to the narrative that we also put out into the world? And I think we like, we came to sort of consensus and, and then I put that piece out into the world.
And, um, I will say that, uh, there is probably a chance, and I, I don't know if I'll ever know, but there's probably a chance that some of the people who read it, who we know, who we might come to for money later, were like, "This guy, like, he didn't call us out, but he took a shit on us, uh, publicly. We're not gonna give him money," right?
Um, on the other hand, I had people come to me and say, "Hey, this really resonated with me," and this is then leading to XYZ outcomes, which are either beneficial for the market or they're beneficial to us or whatever. Like, there was that response as well. Uh, and then there were people who came to me and were like, "I'm so glad you said that.
I've been wanting to say... I can't say it, but I'm so glad that you said it." You know? And, um, and even with the second piece, like this is gonna sound maybe disingenuous a little bit, but, uh, we had it written in like March, and part of the reason we published it in May is we wanted to finish closing our fund.
And I was like, you know, it'd be real dumb if I like published this piece and one of our active investors like backed out. And then two weeks before we closed the fund, we had a major investor bail for reasons that are in that article, and I was like, "Oh, well maybe I should've done it anyway." But we closed the fund, and it was successful, and we like more than 2X our AUM from the previous fund, and it's like doing really well. So-
Take from that what you will
Ross Kenyon: Is there something structural that enables you to speak out in this way? Or 'cause th- you have peers that said they like this, but they couldn't do it themselves. Uh, is it 'cause you run your own company? Is it something else about the way that you've structured it? Like, how do you, how do, how can our peers be more brave?
'Cause I think a lot of the content that I see is, um, not brave. Like, we all believe climate is, is a huge threat, and it's not going well. Yet a lot of the content I see is still very, like, yeah, it's corporate approved. We're at this conference, and we met some people, and it's really cool. And I'm like, "Oh, God, you know we're staring down the barrel of this thing, right?"
Dimitry Gershenson: okay, to be clear, I do think that con- that, that content still has value, right? But I, I, to your question, like, um, uh, yes, part of it is that, uh, you know, I have a C in front of my title, right? Uh, part of it is that I have co-founders and other members of my team who are equally bold and brave, right?
So we have collectively decided, okay, there are moments when we're gonna speak up and we're gonna do it. Um, and there are moments where we choose not to. Uh, and there are also times where we have spoken up and it, like, ended up being the wrong choice. Uh, and
Ross Kenyon: Like what?
Dimitry Gershenson: um, we can come back to that. And so,
Ross Kenyon: Finish your thought. I'm definitely coming back to,
Dimitry Gershenson: to your point, I think it, it, it has to do with, like, the governance model that we have, our values, how we make decisions, and I know not everyone has that.
Um, but I think the, the, the places where I think it bothers me the most is where people arguably should be able to and they don't. So, like, if you're, like, the, the big boss of some fund and, uh, you're the GP and you have... And you're, like, on your, I don't know, third or fourth fund, um, and you're not out there being like, " Shit is broken, let's fix it"?
Then I wanna understand why, right? Or if you like run a big foundation and you have, you know, a multi-billion dollar endowment and the federal government's like, "Hey, stop doing DEI." And you're like, "Cool
And inclusion is one of your core values? Like, what are you even doing? You know? Um, I think that a lot of people overestimate political risk
And I, I hope I don't regret saying that. You know? Come back to me in a year when I'm like, you know, wherever. But I think, I think people overestimate it because in the end, there's a lot more of us than there are them, and you're often way less prominent than you think you are. And even if you're very prominent, like, they have other problems, you know?
And but the benefit of you speaking up is usually underestimated, and I think people don't realize how much hearing it from others, especially people in power, then emboldens others to take action, to ask for things, to act a certain way. Like, in the end, we take our cues on how to operate from the rest of the world, and if everybody's, like, quiet and subdued, you're gonna be quiet and subdued.
And if everybody's like, "Pitchforks," you're gonna get a pitchfork. And, you know, it's like a weird metaphor, but, like, climate is pitchfork time
Ross Kenyon: One theory I've heard for this that makes sense to me is that when you are, let's say, a billionaire, you have so much surface area exposed that the SEC could decide to investigate one of your companies, or, like, they could make life pretty difficult for you if you use your big megaphone to do something that people don't necessarily like.
And this goes back, you know, like even there were claims from conservatives that the IRS was in- were investigating conservative organizations as a way of basically, like, punishing them.
And, um, and, uh, there is a way of, like, you have so much more to lose. Like, I have so little to lose. Like, if you, like, you take, take my house, I guess, but, like, besides that, I'm like, eh, that's all I've got. Go ahead and take it, I guess. But, like, th- but, like, I guess if you were a billionaire, you'd be like, "No, don't send me back to like the masses. Like, don't, don't put me back there." And that, that pl- that happens in places like Russia too, like, as you well know. Like, you could be a billionaire one day and a year later not be a billionaire because you crossed the administration. Um, we're not quite there yet,
Dimitry Gershenson: We're not quite there yet, and there are lots of billionaires in this country who speak up
Ross Kenyon: I'm trying to think of... The last one I can think of is, like,
Dario Amodei and, like, yeah, okay. But,
Dimitry Gershenson: That guy does not speak up.
Ross Kenyon: he did, he, he do, he did it with the Pentagon and then, like, Sam Altman, like, rushed in and was like,
"Oh, how about this?" But,
Dimitry Gershenson: okay. I'm gonna, I'm gonna separate, like, PR bullshit speaking up from real speaking up. Um, uh, and this is not me, like, saying that I align or support any of the following people, but, um, you know, Tom Steyer speaks up in our space a lot and is very not shy about what he thinks.
J.B. Pritzker in, in Illinois speaks up. Um, like, uh, you know, there, there are actually quite a few examples of people who have significant wealth who decide to not bow in the current moment. And, um, and it's also selective, right? Like, there are topics that I care deeply about personally that I don't speak up as much about publicly, partially because I, I-- it's so hard for me to separate myself from my company now that, like, like, oh, we don't have a corporate position on this thing because it's complicated.
Uh, I have a personal position on this thing, so I'm gonna, like, keep that... I'm gonna, like, speak out about it loudly in private circles, but I'm not gonna, like, put it on social media. I also, like, I got off of X or Twitter or whatever it's called now. I got off Facebook. Like, I have accounts, but they-- I don't, I don't think I've posted anything to any of those platforms in years.
Um, the only place I post anything is LinkedIn, and that's very much, like, a corporate space, right? And so, um... But I think that, like, there's also a big difference between... There are ways to speak up that are productive, that are less risky, right? Like, for example, this Catalytic Capital piece. I didn't write in it, "Here are 15 names of people that I think are doing a disservice to our industry."
Because that's not productive. I would've really enjoyed it, and probably other people in the industry would've enjoyed it because they face the same issues, but it's not productive, right? Despite like, like how mu- how, how, how, how, how much short-term like joy it brings me is not productive, right? Um, what matters is like, okay, well, like here's a problem and here's a proposed solution.
That's productive. Here are some tactical things you can do to address this. That's productive, right? And I think that oftentimes people get stuck on like, oh, if I call out this problem, like I'm at risk. Well, it's like one, there's lots of ways to call out a problem. Two, there's lots of ways to then say, "And then what?"
And if your and then what comes from a genuine place of like care and, and appreciation for this thing... It's like, it's honestly like any, like giving any feedback, right? Um, I, I don't know if you're familiar with the concept of radical candor, which is like cor- corpo speak, but I actually really like it.
And, um, was it Kim Scott did a TED Talk on it, and there's like a whole book now. And, um, but you know, it's these two axes, and one axis is how direct are you, and the other axis is how much care you show. And, you know, if you're like too direct but you don't show a lot of care, you're an asshole, et cetera.
And so I think with this, like both of these pieces were written from places of very deep care. Like I care about the ecosystem, I care about the people in it. Um, I think the work is important. Um, and I... And like, it's not like you need to do better. It's we need to do better. Like we have probably, you know, other than maybe AI killing all of us, probably the most, the greatest existential threat to humanity ever in the form of climate change.
It affects everything. It is-- This isn't, you know, localized. It's not, you know, like it's limited to a sector of society. It touches everything: healthcare, education, uh, hunger, poverty, uh, economic prosperity. You name it, climate change will fuck it all, right? And so how can we just sit there and be like, "Oh, we have this broken thing.
We know it's broken, but we're not gonna change anything because it like feels bad to say something"? Like that doesn't make any sense to me
Ross Kenyon: I'm gonna ask you, uh, a direct question here. I hope you can be honest with me about it, How much does anger influence your work and how you speak?
Dimitry Gershenson: Whoa.
Oh, that's an interesting question
Ross Kenyon: You're just buying yourself time to answer corporately.
Dimitry Gershenson: I'm, I'm processing it. I, I think, like, it might, it might be worthwhile to take a few steps back and be like, "Who, who is Dimitry?" Right? 'Cause I think sometimes I, I speak with a certain tone and emphasis that people maybe misunderstand as, like, coming from a place of anger.
Um- And I, I, I can't necessarily place where all of my mannerisms come from, right? So like I grew up in Russia, which has its own vibe. I moved to Jersey, which has its own vibe. I'm on the spectrum, which means that I talk and think and exist in certain ways. And, um, actually being on the spectrum means that I have, I would say, a more rigid perspective on how things should be, uh, which makes me speak, I think, often in like a very emphatic, definitive way.
Um- But to answer your question, I don't know, like 10 to 20%.
Ross Kenyon: Oh, yeah. All prelude for
Dimitry Gershenson: like I, I, I, um, a lot of my career choices were driven by me being frustrated with the status quo somewhere, right? So like I, um, or, or... And even, even as early as joining the Peace Corps, like I joined the Peace Corps out of college, and part of the reason I joined the Peace Corps was because I was like really angry about what the US did to Latin America.
And I felt like a deep sense of personal guilt, which is funny 'cause I'm an immigrant, I had nothing to do with it. Like, I wasn't even here in the country when most of the really awful things happened at that time. Again, actually that's not true. I had lived here for 20 years at that point, and the stuff just continued, so maybe that's not true.
But, um, anyway, like I had, I had no personal liability for what the US did in Honduras, and yet I still felt a lot of personal responsibility for it. And, and then when I, after I did the Peace Corps, I was like really mad about how development worked. I was like really frustrated with how sustainable development actually gets implemented in practice and like I went to grad school to try to understand it better.
And then as I got through grad school, I was like really frustrated by how, um, money flowed into things that seemed to make a lot of sense to me, um, from sources from which they should flow, and that like started my sort of impact finance career. And, uh, in many ways, like the way that we have built Enduring Planet is a response to my frustration with how other places I've worked at operate.
And so I don't know if it's like anger necessarily. Like I don't, I don't think of myself as an angry person. I don't. But I'm like a loud person, and I'm an emphatic person, and I'm not shy about the things that bother me. And, uh, that's sometimes great and sometimes it's like not so great and, um, you know, I'm really grateful to my team for putting up with it day in and day out.
Ross Kenyon: I, I don't mean to put it in a way that, uh, makes the anger shameful or... I, I'm angry about climate change. Like, I think y- I think people should be angrier about it, and in fact, I think... And we've, we've sort of, like, tightened it all down and been like, "Everything's, like, broadly on track to be..." And you're like, you're like, "No, the world is just, like, choosing misery for the worst reasons possible.
It could be so much nicer than this. Why are we doing this?" Um, and I want people to be able to, like, feel the sadness that is maybe underlying the anger, but they can start with the anger and work through it. But oftentimes, it's, uh, that stuff happens behind closed doors, which maybe that's appropriate.
Maybe that's the correct place for a lot of this to take place, as long as it is taking place. I gravitate towards your rhetoric, even if it isn't always the stuff that you put on LinkedIn, at least because I know, like, with you, like, if you don't like what I'm saying, I pretty much know about it. Um, you tell me. You know, you stab me in the front like a real friend does. It's, that's, like, a good quality of s- of someone to do. But, uh, I don't associate that necessarily with being angry either. But you do have... I can, I can sense that your work is motivated, at least partially, from the world is out of sorts, and you feel some- some call to, like, reorient it in some way, right?
Dimitry Gershenson: I think, yeah, I, I, that's, I think that's very right. And, and I also probably should be more comfortable with the notion of, like, being angry can be good. I think we're conditioned over so much of our lives that, like, um, anger is not productive, or anger is not, like, an emotion you wanna lean into. And, um, and I think that, um Passivity is a tool of the oppressor, right? Like, uh, you know, we are regularly told to compromise, and we're regularly told to, like, be calm, and we're regularly told not to fricking riot, like whatever it is, right? And sometimes that's what the world needs, and that's how social change happens. And, um, even folks, even people who are, uh, known historically as pacifists were, like, deeply angry about the state of the world, right?
Um, and so I think you're right there. Uh, I also-- I think that there's like... I think part of what helps me is that, um, I, um, I'm like comfortable with that state of mind, but I also don't just sit in it. Like, I think, I think there's a difference between, um, being angry, voicing said anger, and then, like, just rinsing and repeating, and being like, "Okay, this sucks.
What am I doing?" Right? Like, how am I gonna participate in this problem? And obviously, the world w- is filled with lots of things that make you angry, and so it's not possible to, like, work on every problem. But at the very least, you should be conscious of the fact that you're making that choice, and you're like, "Oh."
You know, if you're, like, really angry about climate change and you, like, work in a tech job building the next version of some button in some app that makes people scroll videos for 70 years at a time, like, maybe consider working in climate, you know? And lots of people don't have the optionality of choosing a different career.
You know, they might have a sick partner and you can't get the same benefits, or you can't move, or, you know, you have a mortgage and you, like, can't take startup risk. Whatever it is, sure. But if you have the, the status and the power and the privilege to, like, act on the things you're frustrated by, go fucking do it.
Ross Kenyon: Actually, I do not hear that many people, disclose, autism spectrum, possession in general in this space, which I know, like, it's, it's fairly common. Um, but I think it is one of those things that allows people to, for better or for worse, there are times when you th- can think more blackly and whitely than, than others.
Like Greta Thunberg is someone who I think of, she's just like, "What we're doing is not working, and, like, you can dress it up however you want, but it's not..." And that, and she attributes that to autism and, like, the particular way that her brain works. Like, do you feel like you've had similar types of clarity that maybe others miss because of how their, their brains work in a more neurotypical fashion?
Dimitry Gershenson: Uh, sometimes. I mean, it's, it's a, it's like, it's a thing that I came to understand and know about myself as an adult, so I didn't have a diagnosis as a child. So I think, like, for me, um, it, it, uh, knowing that has been really helpful because it allows me to place, uh, sort of my brain in context. And, you know, in lots of ways my neuro spiciness makes my life harder. Uh, in other ways it makes it... It g- it's an advantage for sure. Like, I think that one of the things that it allows me to do is to draw connections between either people or concepts in a way that I think other people might not be able to, or at least I've noticed.
It, it feels unique to me, and it makes... It's, like, very, very fast, and that can be really helpful, especially when you're running a company. Like, pulling stuff together, thinking through problems, getting quickly to answers. At the same time, sometimes it's too fast, and, like, really I should've taken more time to solve this thing, and instead I went real quick and I was like lots of conviction, black and white.
And then I'm like, "Ah, shit, it was actually more gray." You know? Um, I do think it's important that, uh, in general we talk more about, um- ourselves and, uh, I, I don't know, like, um, I don't know what the term is, overarching term, but like, like I have anxiety, you know? Uh, that is, uh, generally not a good thing, but sometimes it's a good thing because it means that I like wanna solve problems real fast, and I don't let things go, and like I have to work through stuff.
And, um, and, and but the thing is that like when I talk to other founders, like there's so many people out there who are doing this job that's really, really hard. And, uh- A lot of the people around them don't talk about what that experience is actually like. And one of the... I, I'm not gonna name the founder, but there was this moment in our journey where I called a friend of mine who's also an entrepreneur, and I was like, "Man, I'm like dealing with really terrible insomnia."
And I like, I basically didn't sleep for... I mean, I, I did, but I like basically didn't sleep for a year. I had like, you know, uh, four or five-day chunks where I would sleep for four hours, five hours, um, all while like running a company, raising a kid, being a husband, like being a partner, trying to be friends with people.
Like it was, it was o- one of the hardest times in my life. And I called a founder friend of mine and I was like, "Yo, this is happening." And he was like, "Oh, just wait until you get the, the ulcers." And, and like, uh, we had a much deeper conversation and he also shared his experience with insomnia, et cetera.
But I was like, "Oh my God, it's not just me." And obviously it's not just me. Like, I know that and I, I know hypothetically that other people have this problem. But having folks share with you that this is their reality, it allows you to then feel less like a failure, right? 'Cause in, in some ways it's like, "Oh, I can't cope."
But the reality is like this shit is hard and nobody can cope. Like even the people who are raising a billion dollars aren't sleeping. They're also running out of money. They're also like, you know, um, making bad hires. They're also freaking out about X, Y, Z. They also have customers who don't pay them.
Like everybody has these issues, and you're not alone, and I think it's important to talk about it. I do think it's funny though that, and I'll, I'll end after this, but sometimes I'll be in social circles and I'll be like, "Oh yeah, I'm, I'm autistic, X, Y, Z." And other people are like, "Oh, me too." And they think I'm saying it as like a joke, like I'm calling myself autistic when I'm not.
And I have to be like, "No, wait, I, I'm actually on the spectrum." And then either they go, "Yeah, I, I know. Me too." Or they're like, "Oh." And I'm like, "Please don't call yourself autistic if you're just like a little weird." Like unless you have... unless you've, you've gone through the diagnostic process, like don't
Ross Kenyon: I've had this with, uh, ADHD for which I have a somewhat recent diagnosis, and for me it's not a joke. It's like it's made my life really difficult and relationships in various ways, like more painful than they need to be. And so there's like a jokey version of this in the culture where you're like, "Oh yeah, I have ADHD." I'm like, "Really? Are you?
Yeah, like have you made your marriage more difficult because you have a to-do list that runs your life and you're like obsessed with stupid parts of it that don't actually achieve anything? Really?
You, you have that too?"
It's not like, The things that I'm good at, I think I attribute at least partially to that's how my brain works.
It's like you, you gain some better offensive powers, but you lose all of your defensive powers in a different area, and you're like, "Cool, I, I traded for this," and it isn't just pure upside.
It sucks in a lot of ways. Yeah. Um, I imagine it's probably very similar to people who think like, "Oh, I'm a little bit rude sometimes. Yeah, I'm like a little bit autistic." And you're like, "That's, um, mm-mm. No.
Please do not be doing that."
Dimitry Gershenson: Not the same.
Ross Kenyon: Not
Dimitry Gershenson: Not the same
Ross Kenyon: Oof. Yeah. You had mentioned, um, some of the mistakes that you've made.
Are any of them related to that sort of like way of thinking where you're like you're very good at categorizing, but maybe you think like you've done it too quickly at, at moments or some of this like trade-off kind of thinking of, you know, disability but also like the advantages of disability and, and autism?
Dimitry Gershenson: Oh, um,
Ross Kenyon: Or is it just conventional mistakes that you've made where you're just like a business person who is human? Could be that too.
Dimitry Gershenson: I think it's hard to tease those apart. I think there ... I think the thing that I know I struggle with is, like, I'll form an opinion of, um, let's say how the world is or how a thing should work or how a thing we sell works or whatever. And, um, I, I hold onto that opinion a little longer than I should, you know?
Um, and, um, sometimes that's a good thing, right? Like, sometimes holding onto it lets you prove to the, to the other people who are saying no, um, that it is actually worthy. And, um, but at other times you're like, "Oh man, we should, we should have stopped doing this like three months ago, and instead we're stopping it now," right?
And, uh, and I think, like, part of the challenge is that, uh, I ... This is, like, very much a spectrum-y thing I think, I think at least from what I've read. But, um, like, people will come to me with an argument for why a certain thing, let's say, is like, is not or is the way it is, right? And I'm like, "Cool, you presented this argument that's making a general statement, but there's this element of the argument that I don't agree with, and I have specific evidence for this one nuanced niche case of this being not true, therefore I'm gonna reject your whole argument because it's not
You're making a general statement. If you had made a hedged, careful 80% statement, I would've listened to it differently." And like, most people don't think about stuff that way. They're like, "Hey man, whenever," uh, I don't know, "Whenever you, like-" I'm trying to make like a personal analogy. I don't know.
Whenever you make eggs, you lift- you leave the frying pan on the stove, and it's always messy and I have to clean it up. And I'm like, "Well, three weeks ago I did not do that, therefore your statement is wrong," right? And like, "No, it's not."
Ross Kenyon: That would not work
Dimitry Gershenson: Right? And so, uh, yeah, told my wife. Um, and so, um, so I think that's where I have to like sometimes take a step back and be like, "Okay, what am I arguing with?"
And like, "Why do I feel this way?" And also, like, is my conviction well-placed, and is the evidence well-placed? And I think that like part of the challenge I have also is that I'm very reactive, which I don't know if that's like... I don't know what to attribute that to, but I'm very reactive. And it's really hard for me once I react to like stop the train.
And so, um, o- like a lot of, a lot of my team will tell you that like they'll come to me with a thing, I'll have like a reaction. You know? And then like an hour later I'm like, "Hey."
Ross Kenyon: Do they just try to like CBT you real quick? Be like, "Okay, how do
Dimitry Gershenson: I'm like, "Hey, I, I reacted this way. I still stand by X, Y, but I like maybe don't stand by Z 'cause that was like an impulse reaction."
And, um, I think a lot of folks show a lot of patience with that model around me, and I appreciate them very much for it
Ross Kenyon: How do we have more real conversations in climate, both about the biggest issues of momentum, but also about personal accommodation, neurodiversity, mental health? Just like this work is really hard, and I, I find it to be depressing some days, and it's hard to keep going and, but yet here I am, I show up every day and try to move the needle a tiny bit, but it sucks some days.
And how do we not, uh, hide that for career reasons that are actually, like, harming us? How, how have you done it?
Dimitry Gershenson: I think, um, I don't know. I'm still figuring it out. I, I, I think that like, um People need to find their comfort zone, right? So they, they-- you start somewhere and you're like, you voice the thing somewhere, and then you like take a step out and you're like, "Okay, I'm gonna voice it in this other setting."
And like, uh, is that water too hot? And then like, you know, go bigger. And so like, I think over time I've gone bigger and bigger. Like I, I used to voice my stuff to colleagues and certain partners, and then I was like, "Well, I can say this on stage, but I can't write it." And then I was like, "Well, I can write it, but I can't say it in a recording."
And then I don't know, whatever it is, right? Um, I also think that like, uh, it's, it's important to ask people how they're doing and mean it, right? Like this is a thing that I find really interesting is that... And, and it's, it's, it's funny because this is like part a Russian thing or like having grown up in the Soviet Union and Russia and partially probably 'cause I'm on the spectrum.
But like people ask me how I'm doing and I tell them. And folks are always like really confused. They're like, "I was looking for an I'm okay or I'm good or whatever. I don't need like a 15-minute story about how you hurt your toe last week. Like I don't need that," right? Um, but I actually think that can be, with founders, it's like it can be really productive.
And what's interesting is that, um, you know, uh, people actually really appreciate candor and it builds trust in a way that can be accretive to your business, your personal brand, whatever. Like I, you know, when investors-- When we're fundraising, for example, we're not fundraising right now, but when we're fundraising, um, for our fund and people ask me like, "How is it going?"
I like tell them. You know? I'm like, "Oh, you know, uh, this is good. Uh, this is slower than we want. Uh, we have this issue that we're solving. Like we, we learned this lesson that was like painful, but we learned it," you know? And I just tell them. And like could-- Should I sugarcoat it more? I don't know. Maybe.
But it like, it kind of feels disingenuous to me. Like I'm like, "You asked, I'm gonna tell you." And obviously there's like s- some strategic thought that goes into like what you say and what you don't, but, um, more often than not, if you like don't say a thing or if you Whether intentionally or unintentionally mislead, like especially if you're, you know, raising money or building a relationship or building a commercial partnership, like shit comes out.
You might as well just be honest. Like you might as well just be truthful about what you're doing. Um, and I think that's also true, you know, if you're like, if you, if you never speak up, but then you show up in a place and you speak up and people's expectations of you are that you don't speak up, it's like much more jarring.
Like when people ask me to go somewhere or whatever, at this point they like most of them know what they're gonna get. Um, and I, I regularly have people come tell me and they're like, "Hey, I really appreciate this like candid perspective. I never hear it anywhere else." And I'm like, "Cool. I'm gonna keep doing it."
Uh, and probably there are people who find me abrasive and, you know, annoying or loud or offensive or whatever, and like, um, well come talk to me also, and I'm happy to hear your thoughts. And, um, I don't know if it will change me, but at least I'll listen
I don't know. Does that answer your question? Like, I, I, I think also, um, the, the, the moment itself drives how people should exist in it, right? Like 30 years ago, maybe we could all be a little less loud. Although maybe that was actually the mistake, right? Like
Ross Kenyon: Yeah
Dimitry Gershenson: like, "Hey, we're gonna burn the house down if you guys don't solve this problem," we wouldn't be in the current mess, right?
But it... And, and, and arguably, like you could, you could make the case that like the moment right now isn't really much different. Like, yeah, it, it keeps getting worse, but it was already getting worse then, and arguably we're, in some ways, on many measures, we're actually on a better trajectory now than we were 20 years ago.
You know, um, I don't think anybody expected China to do what China did, and like China's like a big contributor to climate change. Um, even in the US, despite all the fuckery, we're like making really good progress. Is it as fast as it could be? No. But is there progress? Sure. And I think it's like, it's also important to, to b- be able to balance those perspectives to like, oh my God, the world are on fire, but also we're making progress.
'Cause if it's like, you know, there's this, um... When I was in grad school, uh, this is like one of the most formative moments of my climate career. I, I got to ERG at Berkeley. ERG is the Energy and Resources Group at Berkeley, and, uh, it's filled with incredibly smart people, and the people who built that program are like some of the founders of environmental science and climate econ, and y- you pick the thing, they're probably touched ERG somehow.
And, uh, there was this professor there, John Harte, who is like one of the fathers of applied ecology, and John took us on a walk on a beach in California. This is, you know, it's Berkeley, so we like took this field trip. We go on this walk and one of the grad students was like, "John, if you could succinctly communicate the current moment to a layperson, what would you say like about climate change?"
And he looked at her and he goes, "We're fucked." And she was like, "Okay. Question two, what do I do with that? Like, like what do I do with that information?" And he's like, "Well, honestly, there's kinda two paths. You could like crawl into a hole and accept defeat, knowing what you know. You could do that." Or you could go out there and try to do everything that you can to make even the tiniest difference
Those are the only two options. Like, wha- knowing what I know, those are my only two options. It's either, like, give up or fight And it really stuck with me. And I was like, "Well, cool. I-- for me, there's really only one option then."
Ross Kenyon: I think I have one final question for you, Dimitry If someone is listening here and they want to be a little bit more like you or I, and you are more, you are more you than I am I in this case. Um, but I'm, I'm also, uh, a- approximating you-ness. God, what a weird sentence. Um, how can they start? If they, if they're trying to not speak corporately, how do, how do they just like, what's the first step they can make?
How do we be real? Teach them
Dimitry Gershenson: Oh my God. Uh, I'm still
Ross Kenyon: It's, it's a crazy question,
Dimitry Gershenson: I'm still processing the framing of the question. Um, I mean, I think it's like just try. Just try once and see how it feels. And, um, then try again a little bigger and like, uh, I, I think that, um, it also helps, like I have- I have built a community of people over the years that have chosen to speak, right?
Speak out, speak publicly, whatever. And, um I've, I've talked to them about, like, how they experience it, what the risks are, what they think about how they make those decisions, right? Like, I know plenty of folks who are, you know, very public about a thing, but they're not public about other things, or they're very public about everything, or, you know, like...
Um, and, and I also-- It's interesting to me because I think we like, we now live in a world where, uh, lots of people feel very comfortable about speaking out for better or worse. And so I think people should take that as like indication that they can too, right? Because if the only people who speak out are the people you disagree with, and you don't Well, uh, what is that called?
It's the, um, there's a shift that happens. I mean, they, it's usually applied to like politics.
Ross Kenyon: Overton window
Dimitry Gershenson: Yeah, the Overton window will move. And like maybe if you had spoken out, you could avoid that. Um, and so in the end, like, you know, um, did I always have the comfort and maybe hubris to like, do what I do the way I do it?
No. It took a lot of time and like me trying and failing and sometimes succeeding and, um, sometimes being wrong, uh, many ti- often being wrong, right? And just like doing it and doing it and doing it and not, um, you know, uh, trying to be as fearless as possible. Um, because the problems we work on require people to be fearless Like, it doesn't matter if you're an accountant in climate or an HR person in climate or an engineer in climate or a CEO in climate, like if you care about this problem The time for, for like that kind of fear is past
Ross Kenyon: did this go as you expected it to go?
Dimitry Gershenson: -- It did not go the way that I thought, but I, I really enjoyed it. I thought this was a really wonderful conversation, and I actually... It's funny because we talked about candor candidly, so it's like a weird meta thing, but it was super fun. I really appreciate it
Ross Kenyon: Likewise. Thanks for being on.
Dimitry Gershenson: Thanks, brother
