CarbonWA's Kyle Murphy and Greg Rock have both previously been on the show to talk about Washington state's carbon policy and their legislative attempts. Now, CarbonWA is focusing on a new approach to incentivize regenerative agriculture called the Sustainable Farms and Fields Bill, which is Senate Bill 5947. In this Reversing Climate Change bonus episode, CarbonWA's Sustainable Farms Campaign Manager, Noa Kay, joins the show to give us an update on their efforts and change of approach.
Full Transcript
Alexsandra Guerra: You’re listening to the Reversing Climate Change Podcast by the team at Nori, the carbon removal marketplace. This is a show about the innovators and entrepreneurs developing solutions to climate change.
Ross Kenyon: Hello and welcome to the Reversing Climate Change Podcast with Nori. I’m Ross Kenyon. I’m the lead strategist here. Today I have with me Noah Kay, Sustainable Farms Campaign Manager for Carbon Washington. This is another one of these bonus episodes that we’re doing. So we’re technically on season break, but we’ve been trying to Invite back previous guests or previous organizations that we’ve had on before to get updates. So Noah, we heard that there are some very exciting things happening over at Carbon Washington. You guys are a state-level advocacy group, and it seems that things are on the move for soil carbon in Washington.
So maybe let’s back up a little bit. Tell us again what exactly Carbon Washington is, and why don’t you tell us how you got involved?
Noa Kay: Yeah. So Carbon Washington is an organization that’s working statewide, as you said, to move Washington state towards net zero carbon emissions. So we do that in a few ways. We work on policy and crafting and drafting policy that would help achieve that. And we’re working to build momentum and support statewide to move the state there.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah. And then you too. We have Greg Rock’s story. We have Kyle Murphy’s story. I’ll put the links to both of those episodes in the show notes. What about you? How did you find your way here?
Noa Kay: Well, I found my way here through farming. I am a new farmer. I just finished my first season with my own farm in Woodinville, Washington. And I have a background in education and public health. And I The potential for farming to address climate change and being part of a movement that could do that is really what inspired me to make the shift to farming and then was excited to also be an advocate in that space.
Ross Kenyon: Woodinville’s very cute. I like it out there.
Noa Kay: It is. And there’s this amazing community of small farmers who are hanging on despite the encroaching suburbs.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah. What are you growing out there?
Noa Kay: I do mix vegetables and I am using no-till system, very similar to our farm mentors, Singing Frogs Farm, who are out of Spastopol, California, and they are just doing awesome work.
Ross Kenyon: I’m not familiar with them, but it sounds like maybe I should be. That’s cool.
Noa Kay: Yeah, they’re worth looking up.
Ross Kenyon: Well, great. Well, the previous episodes we’ve done have been on Washington state level carbon policy, and we’ve mostly focused, as far as I can recall, these episodes happened a while back, which is why we’re doing an update, but they focus on the various attempts at the Washington state level to impose a carbon tax or a carbon fee. But it seems that this strategy might be shifting. There’s more focus on farm policy and soil carbon. What exactly has been changing with Carbon Washington and just maybe Washington state politics with carbon?
Noa Kay: Yeah, well, we know we want to get statewide support and really make the case that there’s a great business and farm reason why folks should consider focusing on soil health and building soil carbon. And there’s potential there. And it’s such an amazing win-win because it’s great for farm businesses and The soil is their stability and that stewarding that soil, as all farmers know, is how they’re going to be viable in the future. And it has this amazing public benefit of being able to store carbon if the right practices are used.
So it’s one piece of a strategy to move towards net zero carbon emissions. You know, we’re not going to get there just by reducing emissions alone. We need a strategy that also has ways to sequester carbon. And this policy addresses climate change from both of those directions. It would provide funds to both reduce emissions in the farm setting as well as sequester carbon in the soil and trees.
Ross Kenyon: And what is the name of this policy?
Noa Kay: Oh, yeah. So the Sustainable Farms and Fields Bill, which is Senate Bill 5947, was introduced in the Washington State Legislature in 2019 and got a good start past the Senate and didn’t move forward in the House. But the 2020 legislative session is just kicking off and we’re excited that the bill has already been reintroduced and we’re looking forward to seeing it across the finish line.
Ross Kenyon: Is this change in approach just because I guess there’s been previous failures and despite being a pretty blue state overall, still not being able to pass carbon policy taxes or fees that may be engaging rural communities, which tend to be a bit more conservative. Maybe is this a new way to get support and maybe get something across the finish line?
Noa Kay: Yeah, we were looking at what could work. You know, what policies would really have a benefit statewide? And how could we start building relationships with rural communities and partner on a policy that would be good, good for many, many communities across the state? So, yeah, we’ve definitely learned from our previous attempts to pass statewide initiatives. And we’ve been looking at where is their momentum and where’s their potential? And how can we tap into that and build good partnerships?
Ross Kenyon: There’s, I think, a specific moment, and I think it was one of the Democratic primary debates, and everyone was talking about regenerative ag and soil. I was like, where did this come from? Like, was there like one consultant who’s like, hey, guys, you guys should be talking about this, and then just...
Noa Kay: It has been really exciting that I don’t know if I am just more cued in this year, but I feel like I have seen more news stories this year. And to see right like on a national stage, folks mentioning soil health and carbon sequestration is just awesome. So I think this is coming at a really great moment.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, I think so too. And it makes sense that you would just pick up on this and see what you can make happen here in Washington. I know Washington tries very hard to be a leader in the climate space, you know, Governor Jay Inslee. I think the state has a lot of its reputation or self-image tied up in being an environmental leader and being a little bit jealous that California steals all the limelight. Yeah.
Noa Kay: They do have a soil health initiative and we think ours has better methodology, but yeah, we’re eager to catch up.
Ross Kenyon: That’s nerd. That’s a nerd bird right there. You know that one. When you hear someone say that, the gauntlet’s been thrown. What sort of support are you seeing, Noah? Do people like what you’re doing? Are farmers excited? Do you have any sense of voters caring one way or the other?
Noa Kay: Yeah, I think people are really, when I talk to constituents who aren’t farmers, people have been, it’s exciting that national buzz has caught on. You know, people have heard about soil health and they want to know more. So I think we’re in a really good place in generating interest. And we have gotten the chance and I’ve gotten to travel across the state this fall to go to farming conferences and attend meetings with farmers and do some listening sessions. And, you know, farmers definitely understand the importance of soil health and conservation efforts.
And there’s a lot of interest and from a lot of different sectors. In Washington state, we have over 300 or so commercially grown crops. And it’s exciting to see how many different forms this could take in different settings and that there are farmers in many different settings who could see this working for them. And, you know, it’s exciting that there’s both farm benefits to this, this policy, as well as climate benefits. You know, if you are using a No-till on a bigger wheat farm and you make one or two passes with your tractor rather than five or six, you save a ton on fuel costs, right?
You’ve got this huge benefit to your farm business as well as having the soil health and in turn greater yields based on that.
Ross Kenyon: One thing that we’ve tracked a little bit with this is that a bunch of federal farm policy sometimes encourages farm level actions that are not regenerative or crop insurance, for example, makes it quite hard for people to switch. So how does it work? Where does state level policy for farms try to just be neutral and not touch anything that’s touched by federal policy? Or does it challenge it in some way? How does the interaction work?
Noa Kay: It’s a good question. I’ve had the chance to speak with people at NRCS.
Ross Kenyon: Which is for our audience.
Noa Kay: Yeah, that’s the U. S. Department of Agriculture’s, let’s see if I can get this right. Is it Natural Resources Conservation Service?
Ross Kenyon: Oh, yeah. Okay, okay.
Noa Kay: I think that’s it. And, you know, some of their programs require a minimum kind of baseline engagement in conservation practices. And this grant program that the Sustainable Farms and Fields Bill would establish could be a bridge to getting into some of those federal programs that require sort of a minimum conservation engagement. So, you know, it’s complicated.
Ross Kenyon: Are you saying that there’s like a lower threshold for what would happen at Washington that would help them feed into?
Noa Kay: Well, this policy is a bridge to adopting new practices. And if there are NRCS programs that require a minimum level of conservation practices and folks aren’t doing those yet, this program can be a bridge to help people get to that minimum threshold.
Ross Kenyon: Okay. Interesting.
Noa Kay: Yeah. But it’s complicated. There are a lot of federal farm programs. And our policy with sustainable farms and fields really puts out a goal of reducing... Carbon emissions and sequestering carbon through agricultural practices, but is not prescriptive on the practices that would get farmers there. We feel like there’s so many different farm settings that wouldn’t make sense to do here. And it’s going to be up to each farmer to sort of weigh the costs and benefits of doing that with the other programs that they might be involved in. So we haven’t carefully...
Set out this grant program to align, although that’s some of the work that the Washington State Conservation Commission will do as they roll this program out if the bill is passed, is to work on that alignment and how to help farmers access these dollars and how to help them kind of braid the different funding sources that they might be getting from many places.
Ross Kenyon: Braiding. I like that term. I’m going to use that. Okay. So then you have this partition between sequestration happening and there’s some sort of incentive to do that. And then there’s also some incentives to reduce carbon emissions. What are those incentives? Are farmers paid for the tonnes that they store in their soils? How are you measuring it? Give us some of these details here.
Noa Kay: Yeah. So some of those details are not worked out yet, but I can tell you what we do know. Well, let’s start with measurement. So the measurement process will be determined by... A collaboration of folks from the universities and from the Washington State Conservation Commission and the Washington State Department of Agriculture.
Ross Kenyon: This is for measuring the soil sequestration.
Noa Kay: So measuring the outcomes. So measuring carbon sequestered in the soil and measuring and tracking emission reductions. That methodology has not been determined. There’ll be a group that will come together if the bill is passed to determine that methodology based on the best science available and, you know, hopefully update that as better science emerges. And what was the first question?
Ross Kenyon: Or just is reduction a part of that too?
Noa Kay: And reduction is part of that too.
Ross Kenyon: Okay.
Noa Kay: Yeah.
Ross Kenyon: Great.
Noa Kay: And in some ways that’s easier to measure, you know, if you’re using less fuel, but might be a little bit trickier to measure if you are reducing emissions from, for example, methane emissions from waste from a farm setting.
Ross Kenyon: Sure, but it’s easier in some ways, but then you get into weird counterfactual stuff too. Yeah, this stuff’s harder than it might seem to get right. So kudos for diving in and trying to figure that out. So if this bill passes, then the next step would be this sort of hardcore nuts and bolts methodological development. And then when would farmers start getting paid?
Noa Kay: That’s a good question. And so I’m trying to remember in the latest version, there would be this process of developing the grant program that would be led by the Conservation Commission. And then you’re right, it needs to both roll out the door, the applications need to be opened up to farmers. And we anticipate that if it passed in 2020, As we hope it will, that the Conservation Commission could accept applications in 2021. And then you asked a question about farmers getting paid as well, which I didn’t get to.
Ross Kenyon: Oh, yeah. And how that would work. Let me braid this with mine. And then with farmers getting paid too, is this something that if they accepted money through a program like this, would they also be able to enroll in a voluntary marketplace like Nori? Do they have to choose one or the other? There’s going to be other soil marketplaces too for soil carbon. How does that interact?
Noa Kay: Yeah. So they would be. So the way that this grant program works is that it pays for the technology or the potential Reduced yields with a switch of practices or a infrastructure needed to adopt a practice. So it’s not per se paying for the carbon sequestration. It’s paying for what sort of infrastructure and setup and what do you need financially to make this transition?
Ross Kenyon: Weren’t you saying that they’re paid based on outcomes though? Or is it practices based or is it some sort of weird hybrid?
Noa Kay: Yeah, it is mostly practices-based. So we’re going to measure outcomes, and that’s a really important part of the program to understand if it’s working. And some of those details will be determined as the grant program is fully developed, as the bill passes. But we expect most farmers will say, to do rotational grazing, I need, for example, electric fencing. That’s the kind of infrastructure barrier to me getting this up and running that I need financial assistance with. And then so they apply for a grant for a specific component that they need to implement a practice.
Ross Kenyon: Are you working with grazers too? This isn’t just croplands?
Noa Kay: This could be both crops and branching.
Ross Kenyon: Wow. That’s cool. Ambitious, I think. Yeah. So my understanding, I’m not like the soil genius like some of the people on the team are, but is that the grazing is still quite hard to measure relative to croplands.
Noa Kay: I think it is.
Unknown speaker: Okay.
Noa Kay: That is my understanding as well.
Ross Kenyon: Well, I hope you get them both right. It would be good if Washington were able to figure this out. I don’t know. Are other states working on stuff like this too? I know California gets a lot of attention for it. Are there others?
Noa Kay: There are others. I know that there was a soil health bill introduced in New Mexico last year. And there’s a list on the Soil Health Institute’s website of the bills that have been introduced that have been focused on soil health.
Ross Kenyon: Indeed, I have the Soil Health Policy Resources Catalog pulled up from the Soil Health Institute. If you’d like to see which states are working on which policies, there’s a link in the show notes there too. Well, Noah, why don’t you drive us back here to Carbon Washington and how can people learn more about what you’re doing? How can people get involved? What can they do if they don’t actually live in Washington and they’re listening? Why are you listening? Is it just inertia? You’re just along for the ride? What do they do?
Noa Kay: Yeah. So the best place to go for updated information is Carbon Washington’s website. We have a newsletter that especially during the legislative session, we’ll be keeping folks up to date on how this bill progresses as well as the other...
Ross Kenyon: Is it carbonwa.org?
Noa Kay: Carbonwa.org.
Ross Kenyon: Okay.
Noa Kay: Yep.
Ross Kenyon: I’m sorry. Please continue.
Noa Kay: Yep. And we’ve got a landing page for our Sustainable Farms and Fields campaign on that website. So that’s a great place to stay in the loop, learn more about what we’re doing, and to get updates on how this bill moves through the legislative session.
Ross Kenyon: Great. Well, thank you for being here, Noah. We will definitely keep track of this. Seems relevant to what we’re doing here in Washington. If you’re listening, all those links are in the show notes. If you’d like to take a look and learn more, thanks again for being here, Noah. And there’ll be some more bonus episodes before we come back for season two. So stay tuned if you would like to. Well, I don’t know. I don’t have any more scheduled right now. Noah, you’re the last one that I had. So maybe I’ll take a proper vacation and stop doing this or maybe not.
But in any case, thank you so much for listening. A rating or review on iTunes or Stitcher is always appreciated and helps the show quite a lot. And thank you again for listening.
