In our polarized political climate, we are led to believe that ALL conservatives are irrational climate deniers, and ALL liberals are dead set on a large-scale policy solution that will shut down the American economy. But if you turn off the TV and close your social media tabs, you might discover that Democrats and Republicans actually agree on a lot more than we think. So, how do we get both parties to the table to talk about climate solutions?
Full Transcript
Alexsandra Guerra: You’re listening to the Reversing Climate Change podcast by the team at Nori, the carbon removal marketplace. This is a show about the innovators and entrepreneurs developing solutions to climate change.
Christophe Jospe: Hello and welcome to the Reversing Climate Change podcast. My name is Christophe Jospe, here with my co-host Ross Kenyon and producer Paul. We are in the Nori office. If you like the show, if you like what we’re doing, please subscribe, please share this episode, please rate it, leave us a review. Ross, how about you introduce our guest?
Ross Kenyon: Yes, and a small point of order, if you do review us and do choose to give us that gift, that’s it. It really helps more than you might think if you give us a nice rating and a review. And if you have it on your iPhone, you’re listening in the podcast app that comes with Apple. If you do it there, if you do it on iTunes, it’s the same place. It helps a lot. So thank you. And thanks for introducing me, Christophe.
Paul Gambill: Calling it a gift makes it sound like we’re doing a telethon right now.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, I should do that. I imagine myself in seersucker. For some reason, I have a straw hat. This is like old school politician stuff. Benji, pardon the train wreck here, but we’re going to give it a go.
Christophe Jospe: I think we’re nervous because he’s the youngest guest we’ve had on the podcast. That’s right. We’re just trying to be cool.
Ross Kenyon: Probably shouldn’t announce that when we have the oldest guest, but maybe so. Benji Backer, founder and president of the American Conservation Coalition and also a student at UW, University of Washington. Benji, thanks for being here. We saw you speak recently. Wanted to hear more about what is the American Conservation Coalition and just generally what the audience wants to know is what do conservatives have to say about the environment and what is an organization like this doing?
Benji Backer: Yeah, so I’m a 21-year-old college student and felt pretty disenfranchised by the Republican Party on the environment. And I’ve been active in conservative politics since age 10, was knocking doors at age 10, which was a weird sight for most people who answered their doors for a political candidate. But there I was, four foot five in all. And so I talked to a lot of other young people who identified as conservative, who cared a lot about the environment, and they felt like they needed a voice. And for the Republican Party to do more on the environment because, again, they felt frustrated.
So we launched an organization about two years ago and it’s a national organization called the American Conservation Coalition. We’re on 125 college campuses nationwide and we also have a pretty big Yeah. The study I always point to is to the University of Michigan study that showed that climate change skeptics who tend to be more conservative are actually more eco-friendly in their day-to-day lives than climate change activists and people who really care about climate change. And the University of Michigan, and I believe it was Cornell, partnered on that study. And that’s what it overwhelmingly showed.
And that’s just to say that people who maybe aren’t as engaged in these conversations do still care. It’s just a matter of getting something to them and having them become active so things do happen on a national and state and local level.
Ross Kenyon: Yes, that’s a very important way to go about it. And I think a lot of the disagreement may just be the way that people talk about this or present these issues. Because as your website singles out, I think sportsmen and women who are involved in hunting and fishing and living in the countryside where they’re Actually interacting with nature in quite a regular productive capacity. They have environmental instincts that are in many ways more honed than people who live in the city and just visit nature. And so what has failed? How come they haven’t been activated in the correct way recently?
I feel like you’re the only person I’ve heard talk about this, except for maybe when we had Todd Myers on or there’s a couple others, but...
Benji Backer: Right. Yeah, I mean, that’s a really good point that a lot of times conservatives or people who don’t seem like they care about the environment or are more out of the conversation are the ones who live in the environment and they know firsthand how important it is to protect it and preserve it and interact with it so they can have it for future generations or for their farm or whatever it might be. And I think why those voices have been lost is because And most of the voices like you pointed to are coming from urban areas who don’t understand the issues of people who live out in nature, don’t understand the importance of the rights of their property.
They don’t understand the issues that they deal with every day. And they’re like, oh, if we just pass this policy, it’s just... It’s just that easy, you know, and they’re living up in the 20th floor of some apartment building and they have no idea how the environment actually works. So while the motives are good, the knowledge is just not there and they’re not acknowledging the people who are out in nature who are living off of that and are affected strongly by the decisions that are made in terms of environmental policy.
So I think when you want to look at returning to a better dialogue on the environment, you have to Understand that yes, urban areas matter in those discussions, but so do the rural areas, if not just as much more. And you got to take that into account and the people in those areas into account, because as we’ve talked about, they care about it just as much as anyone.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, we’ve been to a lot of farming conferences and oftentimes farmers and environmentalists do not make good neighbors or they just haven’t figured it out. There are cases where they have, like when we had Trey Hill on the podcast, he’s a farmer in the Nori pilot out of Maryland. He has been working with environmentalists. I don’t know if that always works.
Christophe Jospe: Can we try to define something here? What is environmentalism as a definition and what should environmentalism actually be?
Benji Backer: Yeah, so that’s a really good question. I was at a conference here in Washington State where I asked the conservative audience, Right.
Unknown speaker: Right. Right.
Benji Backer: That would have been the question the first time. But no one raised their hands, as you might not be surprised by. And it’s because environmentalism should be just about caring about the environment. You might have different approaches as to how you want to go about that. But you just care about the environment. You want to protect it. You would go above and beyond to protect the environment, whether that be through your own actions or political or whatever it is. But instead, it’s been co-opted as a completely political term that when you hear environmentalism, you hear Al Gore, you hear.
So, it’s turned into this kind of crazy notion. And again, it just should be about caring about the environment. But unfortunately... It just isn’t anymore. And there’s plenty of reasons for that.
Ross Kenyon: Christophe sent this up so well. I want to do the same thing with conservatism, because I think people... I’m going to spiel out. I’ll let you have the first whack at it, but...
Benji Backer: You can spiel out.
Ross Kenyon: Oh, I definitely will. I think when people think about conservatism, they typically think of Tucker Carlson or Bill O’Reilly just yelling at people on TV. It’s like there’s like a couple minutes to yell or turn their mic off.
Benji Backer: Two minutes hate, right?
Ross Kenyon: Two minutes of hate, yeah.
Benji Backer: I think it’s more than that usually.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, I’ve also seen some that are longer than that. But there’s a rich conservative tradition out there, too, that is not well represented. It might be the format. It might just be political discourse in the country at large. It might be both. But just broadly, what is conservatism?
Benji Backer: In 2019, that’s a very loaded and difficult question. And I think it has been difficult, especially in the last three or four years. If you do the math, there’s like something that’s correlated with that. But someone who’s correlated with that, I mean... When it comes to conservatism, what I think of and why I was drawn to it as a young person, it was limited government, not like no government where like you were just having all out anarchy, but limited government and like common sense solutions where you balanced local. You had a positive discourse.
You took into account the environment, the economy, and all different parts of American culture into decision making. And it’s about equal opportunity for all. You know, giving people opportunities to succeed in what I think is still the greatest country in the world. And I think that we have strayed as conservatives from that. It’s turned more into a hostile anti-left movement. And oftentimes doesn’t represent limited government ideals, even pro-economic ideals. And I think, unfortunately, conservatism, there’s really no good answer to what conservatism is right now because it’s so hard to define.
I don’t think someone like Tucker Carlson spewing like a hateful two minutes on Fox News would have been tolerated by conservatives 10 years ago. And it’s just kind of in a slow and steady... Way down, in my opinion. And like when I was drawn to it, it was 2008, 2010, 2012, Mitt Romney.
Paul Gambill: That reminds me of when I think this was in 2009. My background is I ran the College Republicans at Arizona State.
Ross Kenyon: Did you know that, listeners? Paul’s talked about that elsewhere, but here it comes for you now. Yeah.
Paul Gambill: And I had gone out to DC for a conference, a week-long conference. And I remember, I think it was hosted by Young America’s Foundation. And I remember talking to one of the other students who was there about it and saying like, I really wish like conservatism was better represented. Yeah.
Benji Backer: See, I think that it’s changed, though, because I think that those talking heads are still there. But that’s always kind of how it’s been. There’s always been kind of radical talking heads in both sides throughout history. But I think it’s the it’s the mass amount of them where like the people who people used. So I would say there were those voices that were propped up more than they probably should have been, but I think on both sides that’s always been the case. I just feel like now more than ever those voices are propped up more.
I don’t know.
Christophe Jospe: So there’s a video of you on the internet with Van Jones.
Unknown speaker: Oh, that’s a good one.
Christophe Jospe: Explaining what you do. And he’s like, wait, so why aren’t you on our side? Which is interesting. So it’s this presumption that environmentalism is or wanting to do something about climate change is only...
Unknown speaker: Right. Right. Right.
Ross Kenyon: Benji with the one word answer. Yes, I agree.
Christophe Jospe: For me, when I learned that Paul was part of College Republicans, I was like, game on. Like, I’ve always voted left of center, but I want to be a part of a company that has ideals that think differently for me because I think... I don’t want everyone.
Ross Kenyon: We’ll be right back. You can do the same thing with basically every school of thought I’ve ever read it, and I’ve read lots. There’s something there that is useful and applicable if you use it in the right way. They’re also wrong about stuff. And so I think that’s important. Okay, I’m going to spiel out, okay?
Unknown speaker: No, it’s okay. Minor monologue, Alexsandra. I’m taking a picture. It wasn’t candid. I threw a little sign.
Ross Kenyon: What I like about conservatism and correct me if I’m wrong, Benji, I’m thinking back to I’m imagining a nicer, the best of the intellectual tradition that is conservatism. I’m thinking like you go read Edmund Burke, you read Robert Nisbet, some of William F. Buckley’s stuff, Michael Oakeshott, the Scottish Enlightenment. I like David Hume a lot. But what I like about conservatism is that it’s a recognition of the limitation of humanity. So being able to redesign social systems by fiat and impose them is a great risk. And so for conservatives, I think they love pointing to and told the USSR, I know.
I love that. Like Brumaire. Yeah, that to me is the conservative nightmare. And of course, it ended with Napoleon and decades of war. And all because just the kings were quite exploitative. And I wonder what might have happened like if their transition was a little gently. Maybe closer to England’s. I don’t know. This is getting a little off track. But that’s what I like about conservatism is a sort of like default skepticism about humanity’s ability to redesign their social institutions and to be cautious. So that’s what I associate with the best of conservatism with those authors that I mentioned.
But I don’t really see that. Normally, it just seems kind of mean. Is this your experience? Are there people that are contemporary that people should be reading if they want really smart conservatives that like, where do I look?
Benji Backer: Yeah, well, I think like in terms of the policy where like an Arthur Brooks does a really good job of being a compassionate conservative.
Ross Kenyon: He’s at AEI, right?
Benji Backer: Yeah, I think he just recently stepped down as president just because he was not really enjoying the whole political discourse. And also he’s been doing it for a while. He took a new role. I just listened to a podcast interview with him. He did take a new role somewhere, but he just published a book. I haven’t read it yet, but it just was released recently.
Ross Kenyon: It was like Healing America or something. Yeah, I think I saw that.
Benji Backer: Yeah. And someone like that, I think that’s more common than you might assume. I think most people who identify as conservative still hold those beliefs like you’re talking about and as I talked about to some degree. They’re just kind of temporarily following something that’s different and new. What I like to talk about is if you turn off TV and you turn off social media and you just go to a coffee shop or you talk to your neighbor, you realize that these people like haven’t changed. Like they’re not evil all suddenly because they supported Trump or Clinton or whatever or Bernie or there’s still...
We’re still the same people and we actually end up agreeing on way more than we think we do, but because they are represented, so if you’re conservative, you’re represented by Trump or if you’re liberal, you’re represented by AOC, because those people represent your beliefs, that automatically means you’re that hostile or you’re that mean like you were talking about when most people within those movements, I think, can find common ground despite some of the differences.
Paul Gambill: There’s this awesome Saturday morning breakfast cereal webcomic that I always like to share in moments like that, where he depicts when you think you’re talking to someone else on the internet who holds some beliefs that are opposed to yours, most of the time you’re You’re talking to like a normal reasonable person, but you’re characterizing them in your head as like exactly like you’re saying, like they’re the most vicious, most ungracious possible stereotype of who you’re disagreeing with. And so that’s how you argue with them. And it goes back and forth.
And ultimately, it’s really, this is where this discourse really breaks down on the internet is it’s mostly just nice, reasonable people trying to talk to each other and just not being able to do that. And if I may jump in with my, I don’t know, expected, typical, Ross knows where I’m going.
Ross Kenyon: I grant it. Just make it quick because we all know.
Paul Gambill: Like the 15th time it’s come up. Yeah. Well, Benji, are you familiar with Jonathan Haidt and the Righteous Mind and Moral Foundations Theory?
Benji Backer: Yeah. Just not like super deeply, but...
Paul Gambill: Yeah. So we’ve talked about this before on the podcast many, many times, but like ultimately people just have certain values. And if you speak to them and you speak their language in respecting those values, then it’s much easier to have a good dialogue. And that’s what people do most of the time. It’s just that these like hot button issues tend not to do that.
Benji Backer: Yeah. And actually, something I was talking about just yesterday is people who are logical are actually, even in politics today, are more common than people who are kind of mean and rude, but they don’t get the airtime because it doesn’t... And so it’s really hard for someone like somebody that I really look up to is Mike Gallagher. He’s a congressman from Wisconsin. And he is like, he really understands young people, but he’s conservative. And he I think he’s pretty good on most issues. And he’s willing to work with both sides.
But Even though he’s young and he gets it and most people in the United States would probably have a massive amount of respect for him if they knew who he was. He doesn’t get the airtime because he doesn’t say mean things. And so it goes back to like those people know how to talk. Yeah. At least I haven’t seen in my lifetime, albeit short. But that’s just something that I think is part of the process and part of the problem. That there are a lot of people out there who believe in common ground and believe in their value sets combining with other people’s.
But it’s just not popular to the mass culture.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, I think you’re spot on. I think part of it is sort of like a technological determinism or thereabouts that... The way that media is marketed and monetized sort of encourages clickbait. Man, I don’t really like Vice very much, but holy cow. I always read the comments. I’m like, God, this article is just like pushing the buttons of everyone involved. I’m like, this is what sells ads these days. And it’s the same for all sorts of platforms. And I think it’s really harmful. And I think we’re now living in the repercussions of this new media world.
Let’s move on to specifics, though, Benji. Say we grant that you’re not a terrible person for being a conservative. Let’s say we do.
Benji Backer: Hypothetical.
Christophe Jospe: Hypothetical. Yeah, you’re in the good graces, but you can fall out of them at any moment. Be very careful. You’ve been warned.
Benji Backer: I am walking on eggshells currently in this office. There are eggshells on the ground.
Ross Kenyon: Can you hear the fear in his voice? What might be a conservative approach to climate change or how can you persuade conservatives that there is a way that they can care about this and not betray their values or throw capitalism under the bus? We just want to start with that.
Benji Backer: Yeah. So I think first I’ll answer the second part of the question, because I think you’ve got to get conservatives involved before you even talk about some sort of policy. I think a lot of people, unfortunately, are just jumping to a policy and then they’re like, oh, wait, where’s my audience? I’m conservative and I care about climate, but where’s my audience? So there’s some people who are on board with climate change reforms within the conservative movement, and it is a growing number, but not enough to make it a massive wave yet.
We’re getting there. So how do you get them involved? Despite really disliking the Green New Deal, I think it’s forced Republicans and conservatives to get on board. And I think that’s a benefit of the Green New Deal is that it’s so against what we believe as conservatives that it’s pushed us to say, if not for the environment, at least politically, we’ve got So, it shouldn’t take that much, but that’s partially how people are getting involved. The next way is talking about some basic ways as to how capitalism and the market can play a role in climate change reform.
The easiest way to look at it is you can talk about tangible things like Yeah. I think that’s something that came from market demand and it’s reducing emissions and it’s improving technology and that’s the future. And how the United States led in emissions reduction in 2017, we don’t have a massive government policy, but a lot of it came from innovations in technology. Or in transportation or whatnot. So making it accessible for people to realize that those two things, innovation and the markets, go hand in hand with the environment is something that a lot of people don’t understand.
And that the more innovation and the more technology and the more the market grows for the better from consumer demand, the more emissions are going to be reduced. And that has to be a part of a government policy if there’s going to be one. So that’s an easy way to And again, that’s the first step, I think, in bringing people into the discussion who otherwise haven’t been.
Christophe Jospe: So I buy all that. And, you know, to go back to 2017, a major reason because that emissions went down because coal plants weren’t economic because the cost of natural gas is so cheap. And fracking played a major role in reducing those costs and whether that’s Energy independence or actually we’re just going to become an exporter of fossil fuels. Who knows is to be determined. But we’re talking about emission reductions. That only goes so far. What it doesn’t acknowledge is that the greatest market failure of all time is the So we obviously think about, well, how do we make this problem just go away?
Is that a market failure though?
Unknown speaker: It’s a market failure.
Christophe Jospe: Well, I’m laying some like easy softballs here. It is a market failure to not price in that I’m adding this problem and I’m not figuring out how to reverse that problem, right?
Paul Gambill: Or is it more like a tragedy of the commons problem? And who creates those? That’s debatable.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, that’s a fair debate. Don’t derail the guy too much. Let him continue. We can talk terminology later.
Christophe Jospe: My point is we’re not going to get there with nests. Like nests are cool. I’ll install a nest because it’s going to reduce my energy footprint and it’ll save me money. So I’d be silly not to, right? Right. And game on, whatever political color you are, you should support that. But CO2 is still going into the atmosphere because as I just noted, like we’re building more natural gas plants. We’re not capturing the CO2 there. That CO2 is going up. So what’s the free market approach or something that is palatable to the right of center audience that can actually solve this, whether it’s tragedy of the commons or market failure to price in carbon?
What’s the right approach here?
Benji Backer: Yeah, so I guess what I was trying to get at there is that’s how you bring in people to the discussion and show how tangibly the market and their personal decisions as people can work hand in hand with climate change because they see it as something that’s like, I’m just a person and the only solution is this huge government. And it’s so above my head, and I don’t know how I can relate to it. So talking about solutions that they personally can relate with, as well as direct effects of climate change that affect them tangibly, those are the ways to get people into the discussion.
So that’s what I was... But I totally agree that you’ve got to talk about the bigger problem too. So that’s the next step. I didn’t want to be talking for 15 minutes straight. So the second step for that is, we talked about this a little bit before, but there are different ways to reduce emissions in terms of climate change. Climate change like carbon capture and storage and an increase in clean energy, which I think the market will show as something that is more competitive than a lot of conservatives even assume, especially if you allow nuclear and hydropower to be a part of that mix.
And I think those two things together can make a massive impact. At the same time, I think a lot of people, so knowing that even that’s market-based and the free market can play a role in that and technology with carbon capture and storage can play a major role in that. There still is the duty of other countries to start working on their emissions. Because if we reduced all of our emissions today, it wouldn’t really matter if India and China continue to raise their emissions. And in other countries too, especially developing ones will probably be more of an impact going forward too.
So that’s just something that you have to think about too. And that provides an opportunity for us to start leading and for us to show other countries how we can do it without I think a lot of people think could happen with a climate change reform. A lot of times, especially in the United States, we just kind of put it all on us and we’re like, oh, you know, we’re the worst and, you know, this is our problem. It’s everyone’s problem. And we’ve got to showcase to the world how markets and a government policy can work hand in hand to solve this problem, in my opinion.
Ross Kenyon: I just want it to work. I hate when things sound good on bumper stickers. It can be shortened that much. I feel like whenever it can, these questions are quite complicated. I think a lot of this policy should be probably kept pretty simple. So one of the common criticisms Actually, we’ll be having someone on the show, I believe the following week, to answer this common rebuttal that they’ve heard a lot, but that the Green New Deal tries to do too much and try to do too much all at once. And this makes it more fragile because it’s more complex, but they’re also putting Perhaps good reasons to do it that way too, both for the symbolic purposes and also because maybe people need the flexibility to move to different places and they don’t need employer-provided health insurance.
Maybe that’s a dependency on that as a hindrance to transitioning to a new green economy. So I think it’s an area that is ripe for discussion and conservatives have a part to play. In fact, they have to have a part to play in it, right? Like, is anything even going to happen if they don’t? Probably not. So then what is the plan for the energy transition, right?
Christophe Jospe: The plan for the energy transition, at least to pare it back what I’m hearing from you, Benji, is there are technologies that can reduce the accumulation of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, whether that’s capturing CO2 at power plants or producing sources of power generations. That’s obviously quite interesting to Nori because we’re developing carbon removal certificates, which is removal only. And actually we have Anyway, gauntlets thrown, still waiting for someone to come on and talk. But I think the free market approach is to say, let’s self-regulate. If there is or isn’t a carbon tax, if you’re putting this carbon into the atmosphere, you can say, you know what?
I know this matters to you. I’m going to take care of it. Of course, I was kind of thinking when you were talking, I was like, Benji sounds a little bit like a Democrat. He’s saying, you know, we got to lead so that China and India will follow. But then I was trying to put myself in the shoes of a Republican and be like, what are you talking about? Like, why should the U. S. have to do this if these other countries aren’t doing it? And you’re saying, no, we should do it first because we can be a leader.
Yeah. So I guess even though I’m not, look at me like I am the crankiest Republican who doesn’t want to do anything on climate policy and convince me from a conservative viewpoint why I should care about this and my ideals. Yeah.
Benji Backer: Yeah. So I think, first of all, if you look at conservatives and what they care about, it’s national security, it’s jobs, it’s military. All those things are affected by climate change, but they don’t really know that yet because no one’s tried to reach them in that register. No one’s talked to them about how most military leaders have come out saying that climate change is a threat that we need to work towards a solution on. Most people haven’t reached them talking about the jobs that are going to be affected and most people haven’t reached them on the issues that they’ve probably And then talk about how, as a lot of times the talking point against working on climate change is all these other countries are doing it, so why should we?
Conservatives have a lot of pride in the United States and us leading the world and doing things first and having people follow. So you can take it in that way and say, yeah, those countries aren’t doing enough. But why don’t we show them how it’s done? Why don’t we do it so our economy continues to grow? Yeah. Where they’re coming from and where they’re coming from isn’t the Green New Deal. And so if you try to reach them with the Green New Deal, it’s not going to work. So that’s what people don’t understand.
Ross Kenyon: I mean, it’s called the New Deal, which is like you’re using the sort of like callback to like the golden age.
Benji Backer: Exactly.
Ross Kenyon: And yeah, it’s probably not going to appeal to right of center people too much.
Benji Backer: No, but that’s all they’ve heard since the early 2000s.
Paul Gambill: You’re going to get people on the left who are furious that people on the right don’t support it and don’t want to do something about climate change. And then it also makes sense that people on the right are going to say, well, no, we don’t like that particular solution. Is there a better way to do it that might achieve the goals that we share in common? Maybe. So, yeah.
Ross Kenyon: I think the right’s suspicious that the policy goals of the left are sort of all included in the Green New Deal outline.
Benji Backer: Which it kind of is.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, which is, I mean, we come back to this all the time. It’s Naomi Klein’s, this changes everything. This is like the shock doctrine, but for the left, like it’s their chance to get all the policy outcomes they haven’t been able to get before. And I think that loses them a lot of trust from people who are right of center.
Benji Backer: I mean, even looking here in Washington state, I mean, I moved here in 2016 or right before the election and the revenue neutral carbon tax was opposed by people who were left of center because they didn’t like where the money went. And so then conservatives in the state who were actually a lot of them were supportive of the carbon tax, which nationally. Most conservatives would not be for even revenue neutral carbon tax, but they were here and it failed because they didn’t like where the money went. And so to them, it was like, well, then what’s it about?
What is this really about then? Is it about the environment? Because we’re going to get like a very similar result by passing this through a bipartisan.
Paul Gambill: The thing that was like the most sad about the way that happened in 2016 here was that One of the main purposes behind doing it in that way as revenue neutral was to try to set like a template that could be used in other states that weren’t so far left leaning as Washington is. How are you going to get legislation like that passed in the Midwest unless you come up with a way to move that forward? Yeah.
Benji Backer: So partially the reason why we haven’t had climate and environmental results and there are plenty of other environmental issues worth talking about. But one of the reasons is because conservatives haven’t put together their own plan. But I think a large part of it is because liberal environmentalists haven’t been willing to try and work with people who are right of center to find something in the middle that is about the environment. And it’s turned a lot of people away. And I think your point is exactly right.
Paul Gambill: To that end, have you been able to find a way to make inroads with people on the other side of the aisle and like work together on some sort of common cause in your organization?
Benji Backer: Yeah. So the Nature Conservancy and Audubon have been great partners of ours, but they’re moderately left of center. And I think usually like on a campaign like I-732, revenue neutral carbon tax in Washington, they were willing to work on that type of compromise. And I think they are And in almost every state that they have a presence in. So I think that those organizations do a really good job of realizing. But that’s partially because a lot of their membership is conservative. Like Audubon, up to 50%, they say, is conservative, between 40% and 50%.
That’s a big chunk that they represent. Whereas like the ones that dominate the discussion, the Sierra Clubs, World Wildlife Fund, those types of groups don’t want to work on a compromise. And I know the Sierra Club president and CEO pretty well. He’s a really nice guy. We have a good relationship. But in terms of like finding partnership opportunities, they just aren’t there because they’re not willing to compromise at least even a little bit on where they are.
Ross Kenyon: I really like the Nature Conservancy’s pragmatism and using property rights to achieve those outcomes. It’s like impossible to even object to, except I’ve seen objections for stuff like their oil leases. So stuff like that is more controversial, but like the basics of using property rights in a way, I’d be like if you were conservative and you wanted to oppose it, how would you even do it? I feel like if they want to do that on their land, then who cares? With private money. With private money. What is the common ground with the left, Benji?
Where should people be looking? How should we be crossing the aisle and working on these things?
Benji Backer: So I think when you look at, personally at ACC, we like to focus more on the non-climate issues first when we’re trying to talk with both sides. I know to a lot of people that sounds kind of alarming because you’re like, well, the climate issue is the most important one. But there are so many other environmental issues worth talking about, like national park backlog, which almost everyone would agree we need to fund our national parks. Like 95% of Americans support national parks. So that’s something, but it’s also not getting done.
What are those 5% all about? I don’t know. There’s always 5%. I’m anti-national parks. There’s always 5% somewhere, right?
Ross Kenyon: If you ask everyone if they oppose whatever, I’m sure at least. Yes. I’m kind of surprised it’s as small as 5%. Yeah.
Benji Backer: There’s always 5%. It’s like, wow, I don’t know who you are or where you are, but I probably never see you. And yeah, where do you live? I don’t know.
Ross Kenyon: It’s like the old Simpsons joke of old man yells at cloud. Yep. It’s like Grandpa Simpson just yelling. Yeah.
Benji Backer: Ah, those darn national parks. It’s always their fault.
Ross Kenyon: Our greatest idea, I’m told, by Ken Burns.
Benji Backer: Yes, yes. So it’s just like issues like that where we haven’t been able to come together, even though it should be really obvious, and we actually do exist. I mean, it’s things like I think that can happen pretty quickly. That sounds like a far-off thing, but I think that can happen pretty quickly if we actually start talking about it and making that mainstream. But if you want to jump right to climate, which a lot of people do... Then you have to start with the notion that the person who might be skeptical or not as involved or doesn’t think it’s as serious, that they’re still wanting the same things as you.
They still want clean air. They still want clean water. They still want to preserve the environment for their kids and the future generations. So if you start there and you’re able to actually know that you have the same goals in mind, it’s easier to have a conversation. I think most of the time on climate, people start the conversation thinking they’re at polar opposite ends of the spectrum and just doesn’t go anywhere because of that. And so as cliche as it sounds, you have to realize that there’s Yeah. Yeah, you would think I wouldn’t have to say that, right?
Ross Kenyon: I think independently of whether or not they are actually a decent person, they could be quite bad if your goal is to persuade them. I never understand if people imagine that they’re just going to conquer the other side and like these like cultural moves in the country are sensational. Right. Like, like, like you’re going to have it come back the other way. And, you know, whatever new policies or powers you give to the president or the legislature is going to be used against you when the cycle turns and when the culture turns against you, too.
I think people kind of are like short term thinkers in that way. And it’s dangerous.
Benji Backer: It is. And most people, a lot of people don’t think that they’re thinking that way, but they are. And then there’s just if you’re if you’re trying to convince somebody or have a decent conversation, you start with hostility. It’s like you think common sense would be like, that’s not going to work.
Ross Kenyon: I would challenge the listeners to go out there and find someone that you might not see eye to eye with and try to have an egalitarian discussion, even if their views are truly horrendous. At the very least, you might get a good story out of it and learn something.
Christophe Jospe: I was just going to put you on the spot and cite the intellectual Turing test, which seems super relevant here.
Ross Kenyon: Oh, yeah. Are you familiar with this, Benji? We’re just throwing so many things at you.
Paul Gambill: It’s the ideological Turing test.
Ross Kenyon: Oh, yeah. What did you say? Oh, the ideological.
Christophe Jospe: Did you say intellectual? Oh, thanks for correcting me there. Ideological Turing Test. But I’m queuing up your question, Ross.
Ross Kenyon: Oh, yeah. We’re gonna have a final question. Ideological Turing Test is, I think it’s from Brian Kaplan at George Mason, the economist. Basically, you should be able to represent the ideas of someone you disagree with so well that someone wouldn’t know whether you actually held that belief or not. I think people are quite... Bad at this. And actually I’ve seen evidence that conservatives are better at this than liberals and knowing like what arguments liberals are going to make. Whereas like, could your average progressive make a good faith argument for what a conservative could or would say?
Benji Backer: Yeah, I think that you’re right, that conservatives probably do have a slightly better understanding of that. But I do think that’s something that’s lacking, too, because if you don’t understand the other person’s argument and where they’re coming from, then you really can’t have a good dialogue that’s productive. And I feel like I’ve got a pretty good understanding recently in the past few years of where the other side is coming from. And it’s helped me kind of shape my beliefs differently. And I think that’s something that a lot of people are missing.
Like when I was younger, I was just so caught up in, I was actually in the tea party. I actually, I would sit down at the dinner table. My sisters believed in climate change and I didn’t believe in climate change. And I was like screaming at them like, ah, it’s not real. Stop. Stop making it up. And then, you know, that was me at like 12. But I was like so consumed and I never really tried to listen to the other person’s side. I’ve never like changed my beliefs on conservatism because I’ve listened to people talk about climate change, but I’ve been more open to it.
And I think that’s what happens. When you are able to understand the other side’s argument, you have a better understanding of the way that they look at life. You have a better understanding of how to approach issues that they can maybe collaborate with you on at least some people. And it’s a way better opportunity to get things done, even if you don’t agree. And I think it’s really like if you’re listening to this, if you say abortion or immigration or whatever, you can’t make an argument for the other side, then you probably don’t know enough about what the other side’s standing for to have a cohesive debate on it.
And I think it’s really important to know on the issues that you care about how the other side could argue so you’re prepared and also just so you can understand where they’re coming from.
Ross Kenyon: Absolutely. I think that’s a very good exercise. And the older I’ve gotten, the more I’ve read, the wider I’ve read, the more I realize I’m kind of an idiot and like how much there is to know.
Benji Backer: I’m like, oh, God, we are all pretty much idiots.
Ross Kenyon: I’m learning stuff all the time. And the world is just so complex. And then also, if you introduce that people can legitimately disagree over how to rank values, then you’re opening up a whole nother section. The world is hard, basically, and it helps better. Even for practical Machiavellian, if you want to out-argue someone, it’s usually better to listen to them and understand them. But also you might learn something, or you might not. Maybe you’ll just burn your empathy reserves to the ground. Okay, so last question that relates to this. We ask this question sometimes, and I think we should ask it more often, Benji.
Who do you think is the smartest person who disagrees with you? Ooh, that is a loaded question.
Benji Backer: I honestly think someone like Van Jones that I’ve interacted with is the smartest person that I disagree with him on probably most things to an extreme degree, but he... I really respect because his whole goal, despite being a pretty far, I mean, he’s fairly far left in terms of his views, not like that has a negative connotation now, but he’s fairly liberal in his views. But his whole goal is to bring people together, even despite that. And he still holds his views at bay. And I really respect him for that because in today’s world, that’s something that isn’t popular.
And he’s despite that gone out and done what he could to bring people together right now. It’s around criminal justice. And so I think that’s pretty cool. And it’s probably not the most like traditional answer of like a politician, but he leads with bringing people together despite his liberal views and huge disagreements that he and I would have. And I think it’s pretty effective.
Ross Kenyon: That’s cool. Van Jones, we’re coming for you now. You can say Benji Backer as well. Well, Benji, thanks for being here. Thanks for letting us put you in the hot seat. I think it’s fun. Listeners, I hope you like it. I think a lot of our guests tend to be more progressive. So hopefully this was stimulating. If you like it or if you don’t, feel free to reach out to us at hello at nori.com. And a reminder to please rate and review the show if you like it. And if you don’t, you can skip that part.
Christophe Jospe: And just throw it back to you, Benji, if someone’s listening and they want to get more involved with your organization, what can they do?
Benji Backer: Yeah, so our website is acc. eco. So instead of . com, it’s . eco, acc. eco. And then we’re at acc underscore national on Twitter, and then I’m at Benji Backer on Twitter. There’s plenty of ways to get involved in our website, and we’d love to have more people involved.
Ross Kenyon: Is it primarily for conservatives? Is there is there room for people who are left of center to come together and work on issues there?
Benji Backer: For sure, especially on specific projects that we do. So like becoming a member of ACC and staying in contact with us for certain like advocacy things we’re doing around like National Park backlog or some important campaign. Really easy to get involvement from both sides of the aisle. So, you know, we’re happy to have people from all political stripes work with us.
Ross Kenyon: We moved on kind of quickly from that, but I think working on some of those things where agreement is so high would probably go a long way to building some trust between the groups. Does anyone trust each other? If you’re not inside of the political clique, I think it’s impossible to Yeah.
Christophe Jospe: And it’s worth noting, like the best thing you can do to be prepared for climate change is actually be more neighborly because the closer we are, the more tight knit we are as a community, the better prepared we are, the more resilient we are to actually solve this existential threat. And also like, it’s not an us versus them. It’s not this side versus that side. Like we’re all, we’re all on team Reversing Climate Change.
Benji Backer: Yeah.
Christophe Jospe: The world hasn’t figured it out yet, but one day we will. I think it’s sooner than we think, actually. Yeah.
Ross Kenyon: I hope so. I hope, I hope, I’m always hesitant to use the phrase, I almost did, we can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
Benji Backer: Don’t do it, Ross. You literally just did. I know. You just used it.
Ross Kenyon: Rewatched recently the Ken Burns Vietnam series and you’re like, God, they said that for like 15 years. They never, they never, they never saw it. Okay. Well, thanks for again, Benji, for being here. That was super fun.
Benji Backer: Yeah. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.
