A disaster has arrived. Do you have the right supplies? The right mindset? Are you ready?
Last time this topic came up, we spoke with David Pogue on enormous questions of how to choose where to live and to make sure you are relatively prepared for the climate-changed future. This show is downstream from there: what do you do given that you potentially are not moving somewhere else and need to keep yourself and family safe immediately?
In this episode of Reversing Climate Change, Ross Kenyon hosts Jeanne Chilton Devon and Bill Fulton, authors of Survive and Thrive: How to Prepare for Any Disaster Without Ammo, Camo, or Eating Your Neighbor; and The Blood of Patriots: How I Took Down an Anti-Government Militia with Beer, Bounty Hunting, and Badassery.
They discuss the importance of being prepared for disasters, triggered by their experiences during the COVID-19 pandemic. They emphasise that preparation helps reduce anxiety, arguing that a sense of control enables individuals to cope with disasters effectively.
They also recommend various practical aspects including water, food storage, security and mental wellness, and urge people to custom-build their survival kits, taking into account their specific situations. They advocate for community-level preparation (AKA knowing your neighbors), incorporating knowledge-sharing and developing interpersonal relationships.
The discussion also stresses the role of sustainability and self-sufficiency in disaster preparedness, especially in the context of climate change.
Tune in to get primed to think about disaster response in a climate context!
More from the show
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Carbon Removal Newsroom, the news show that ran alongside this one, is over. Its episodes are still up, on the feed Climate Workers Anonymous now uses.
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Resources
Survive and Thrive: How to Prepare for Any Disaster Without Ammo, Camo, or Eating Your Neighbor by Jeanne Chilton Devon & Bill Fulton
The Blood of Patriots: How I Took Down an Anti-Government Militia with Beer, Bounty Hunting, and Badassery by Jeanne Chilton Devon & Bill Fulton
Homestead Survival: An Insider's Guide to Your Great Escape by Marty Raney
The episode of Reversing Climate Change where we discuss insurance, how to choose a physical location for your dwelling, which parts of the country to live in, etc.: "Climate Prepping: How Should Your Family Adapt?—w/ David Pogue, author of How to Prepare for Climate Change"
Full Transcript
You’re listening to the Reversing Climate Change podcast by the team at Nori, the carbon removal marketplace. This is a show about the innovators and entrepreneurs developing solutions to climate change.
Ross Kenyon: Hello and welcome to the Reversing Climate Change podcast with Nori. I’m Ross Kenyon. I’m one of the co-founders of Nori, which is a carbon removal marketplace based in Seattle, Washington. Today I have with me Jeanne Chilton Devon and Bill Fulton, co-authors of The Blood of Patriots: How I Took Down an Anti-Government Militia with Beer, Bounty Hunting, and Badassery, as well as their newest, Survive and Thrive: How to Prepare for Any Disaster Without Ammo, Camo, or Eating Your Neighbor. Clearly you both have a flair for naming books. Thanks for being here.
Bill Fulton: Thanks for having us.
Ross Kenyon: There are so many books on disaster prep and survivalism. How did you get to the point of writing another one?
Bill Fulton: Jeannie, you want to go on this, or do you want me to?
Jeanne Chilton Devon: You take this one.
Bill Fulton: OK, so COVID. Pretty much COVID happened. You know, from the experiences that you read about my life in Blood of Patriots, I have some background experience in emergency management, military disaster management, stuff like that. I live on a kind of a sustainable farm in New England, like, you know, everyone in New England does. And when COVID happened, I started getting a lot of phone calls and questions. And, you know, after you tell the hundredth person to relax, order something off Amazon, watch some Netflix and buy a little toilet paper, there’s a point where you’re like, OK, we need to put something else out here, because obviously the information that’s there isn’t working.
So I called up Jeannie and said, hey, we should write a book on this. And we talked to our agent, and he was like, yeah. And I was like, damn right. Yeah, because your wife’s called me 20 times in the last three weeks and, you know, I’d like to put all this crap into a book for you. So then he put it out to publishers and HarperCollins jumped on it. And here we are. Anything to add, Jeannie?
Jeanne Chilton Devon: Yeah, I think the — I mean, the type of survival manual that it is, which is, you know, as you can tell from the subtitle, it was sort of a counterpoint to the majority of survival books out there that are really geared towards sort of the hardcore survivalist: build a bunker, hoard ammo, you know, that kind of vibe. And we were thinking, you know, most people are not that way. Most people are intimidated by the thought of having to turn their whole world upside down to become a prepper, and to, you know, to have years’ worth of food that they can themselves, and to have, you know, firearms and zombie shutters. And it can be intimidating for most people.
So we thought, you know, we need something that’s just basic, that’s practical advice that most people will feel good about doing, where it won’t induce a panic attack. It can actually be fun. It can be productive. It can be something that you do with your kids. It can be something that you do a small step at a time. And hopefully once people realize that all these things are attainable, it delivers peace of mind and self-confidence to be able to delve into the areas that interest them in a deeper way.
Ross Kenyon: More like disaster preparedness for non-crazy people.
Jeanne Chilton Devon: Right.
Ross Kenyon: I was going to ask about that. The cultural element of survivalism is really fascinating, because there’s certainly plenty of disasters that more progressive people care about, worry about, probably are planning for, but the culture of it tends to be not of their ilk. Essentially, any sense of why survivalism or disaster prep tends to be a right-of-center hobby or proclivity?
Jeanne Chilton Devon: I’m not sure I can completely answer that, but I do know that in the political world, which is sort of where I started from, they’ve done studies sort of on left brain versus right brain, and some real tangible differences in how your brain chemistry affects how you think politically. And I know that the people who are most responsive to fear as a motivator tend to skew politically to the right. Now, of course, this is broad-brushing it. It’s not everybody. But to me, the thought of a, I guess, a fear-based message, which is like, you better hunker down, you better, like, you know, block everybody out, hoard things, you know, get your guns and your ammo or whatever, is more of a fear-based reaction.
And I think maybe that people on the left, it just does not appeal to them, it doesn’t speak to them. It sounds crazy, it sounds fear-mongering. But I mean, we’re all facing the same crises. It doesn’t matter what your politics are. So if the people who are motivated by the fear reaction already have 90 books that they can go to to tell them what they want, well, we should probably be talking to the other half of the population that does not have the message that resonates with them. Which is basically like, look, you can learn how to, you know, grow some of your own food. You can store water. It’s not that hard. And that’s like a huge thing if you ever need it.
You know, you can get your kids involved. You can learn how to make hardtack. You can — you know, we tried to make it, I guess, an upbeat survival manual, if there is such a thing, and make it kind of fun at the same time. I mean, right? If we’re all in this together, as well, have some fun.
Ross Kenyon: It’s very cheeky. I think it’s safe to say there’s a lot of jokes and humor, and you clearly had fun writing it. We recently did a show with David Pogue regarding his book How to Prepare for Climate Change: A Practical Guide to Surviving the Chaos. Really cool book as well. A lot of that book and the subsequent podcast is about choosing where to live and insuring a home, and a lot of that takes place potentially decades in the future. You’re trying to make sure that you have something that is worth passing down to your descendants, and making sure that some of the more boring paperwork elements of your disaster prep are in order. And I’m sure that filters into your work here as well.
But I’m imagining that the average listener maybe doesn’t realize that they should probably be prepared — almost certainly be prepared — for more quotidian disasters that could happen. There’s all sorts of possibilities. I live in Seattle; there’s always the big earthquake could happen at some point. And do people have water and food? Like, if they couldn’t leave their home for a week or two, are they able to even shelter in place? Is that something that they can do? COVID prepared them somewhat for this. They have some experience at this point, most people do. But where should people even start? Imagine that someone is listening and they’ve never considered that the grocery store won’t be open, or anything, that a general disaster will happen where they live. Where should they start?
Bill Fulton: Well, not to plug the book too hard, but to plug the book — right? — when you open the book, there’s a checklist that’s like, OK, let’s figure out where you are. And I think that’s with anything that you’re gonna do, whether or not it’s disaster related or not: the first thing that you have to do is figure out where you are. You know, do you have the ability to produce your own food? Do you know even where your vital documents are? Do you know the routes that you need to get to? You know, if you’re in a hurricane area, what are the hurricane evacuation routes, or a flood area? So all those — you know, doing an assessment of yourself and your situation is where we want to start with anything.
Even more so when it comes to disaster prep, because, you know, like if you live on the coast of Washington, there are just certain disasters that, like you just mentioned, you know, we know that you guys are late for an earthquake. You’re in the Ring of Fire, so you’re in a volcanic area. You guys get some massive rainstorms every so often. You get an inch of snow and everyone finds the nearest telephone pole. There is certain — you know, and you guys have had a few ice storms over the years. So there’s certain disasters that are more common. So that’s where we’re gonna start.
We’re gonna, you know, assess what our position is, and then assess the area that we live in. So what’s likely to happen? And as climate change affects us more and more, those become more and more likely, and the severity and the duration of those disasters are longer and harder. And so that’s what we want people to do. We want them to analyze where they’re at as that first step, because without us looking at ourselves honestly, we can’t really do anything else. Do you have anything to add?
Jeanne Chilton Devon: No, I agree with all of that. And I would also say that for somebody who’s starting out at the very, very beginning — I mean, we have our chapters divided pretty well, and I think we’ve prioritized them according to necessity. So water is our first chapter, because if you have no clean water to drink, or if you have no water, you know, you have a few days on this earth and that’s it. And if the water that comes out of your tap is not drinkable, and they tell you not to drink the water and they tell you not to leave your house, what can you do?
You know, there are certain hacks you can do. You can, like, you know, we talked about that: you can take water out of the toilet tank — not the bowl, the tank. You know, if you’re desperate, you’ve got ice cube trays that have some water in it. But really, everybody should have a gallon per person per day for two weeks, ideally. Can most people do that? Maybe if you’re in a very tiny apartment, you may not be able to. But these are things that people don’t — I mean, they’re super basic. But I think if you stop people on the street and say, how much water do you have stored properly, so it doesn’t make you sick, that you could drink in an emergency? I don’t think many people even have that.
So we’re starting from a really basic, like, how many days can you make it kind of place. So yeah, everything that Bill said: figure out where you are, but get yourself food and water for a couple weeks just to start, you know. And it doesn’t have to be fancy. It can be pantry staples, soups, pastas, you know, rice, things that are shelf stable that you can eat, but also that you’ll use even if you don’t have a disaster. That’s important for sustainability.
Ross Kenyon: There’s — I mean, there’s certainly things that I keep in a root cellar of ours that you have to cycle through. It’s time to eat sardines for the next couple weeks or they’re going to go bad, and then you get another one in, whatever, that’s fine. I also got the — is it 55- or 65-gallon, like, big blue barrel that you fill with water and the water preservative, and it — keeping it, awesome, on a little rolling unit that you can move around.
Bill Fulton: Can you switch that every six months?
Ross Kenyon: No, I thought the stuff that I got was more several years of goodness, alleged — alleges the preservation tool that I use. Is that not right? Should I swap it out?
Bill Fulton: I wouldn’t look at that under a microscope if I were you. I’d just go with it. It’s OK.
Ross Kenyon: OK. Well, I’m talking to experts here. I wanna make sure I’m not gonna—
Bill Fulton: Oh, I’ve prepared — normally about six months in those blue barrels is when you need to swap it, even with the preservatives and stuff. And there’s different preservative products, they have different claims. I’m gonna go with what the government says, which is, regardless of what you use, change that every six months. The only way to avoid that is by packaging in Mylar, and that will last two to five years depending on how it’s stored.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, I definitely don’t have it in Mylar. That’s interesting. That means I might have gone from thinking that I was way ahead of the curve to now my family has dysentery in addition to not having water. So I might have been a—
Bill Fulton: Cool. Yeah. But if you filter it coming out, or if you boil it, you’re fine. I mean, it’s already clean, so you don’t need to filter all the brown out, you just need to make sure that there’s no bacteria living in it.
Ross Kenyon: That’s true. I mean, I do have supplemental—
Bill Fulton: You’re ahead of 99.9% of the people.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, I have the, like, UV wands and iodine.
Bill Fulton: Yeah, stuff like that. I have well water, I have UV lamps that I run my well water through. So it’s the same difference. Works great, whatever. Yeah, the little Mylar packages that they have on, like, Amazon, that’s drinking water. They come in all the cheap survival kits that you probably shouldn’t buy. That’s like the best thing that they have, is the Mylar-packaged water, because all Mylar is, is aluminum. So it’s essentially having water in an aluminum can. And what you can do if you want to store a lot of it is you just get the five-gallon buckets with a five-gallon Mylar bag, put it in there and close it with your wife’s curling iron. You don’t need the big sealing machine. But I didn’t tell you that.
Ross Kenyon: Sounds like you’re both a bit skeptical of the prepackaged kits then. I know there are many, many available on Amazon or wherever you’re looking to buy items like this, right? Jeannie, you want to talk about that?
Jeanne Chilton Devon: I missed the question, I’m sorry.
Bill Fulton: Are we skeptical of prepackaged kits?
Ross Kenyon: You sure you don’t have a podcast? You could just run this thing yourself.
Jeanne Chilton Devon: Sounds like Bill.
Bill Fulton: Oh, sorry, man.
Jeanne Chilton Devon: We are a little skeptical of prepackaged kits, simply because if you put something together yourself, it’s going to be probably better quality, because you’re buying each individual component for yourself, for your own circumstance. And if you have a company — and there are some good ones, and we talk about a couple of them in the book — but in general, if you just went to Amazon and said, that looks like a good deal on a survival kit, I would be really skeptical whether it was lesser quality items bundled together and sold to make a company a profit.
Bill Fulton: But I think it’s important, when we start talking about survival kits, even generalized survival products — there’s so much junk out there. And we get into this a little bit in the book, talking about sustainability and quality, and even more so when it comes to, like, survival equipment. But even in your whole life, so much is made to be disposable now. And in a survival situation that’s horrible, right? Because you need the items that you need, you need them not to break. There’s no way to replace them. And because our lives revolve around this consumerism of buy it, it works for a few weeks, replace it, there’s many times not even things made currently that are good enough to be putting in a survival kit.
So I use older stuff, where I have to buy custom-built things. But the quality that you buy definitely works into the sustainability. And that’s even like, you know, I was talking to somebody the other day about pots and pans. Like, I buy All-Clad pots and pans. Why? Because you only buy them once. They’re great.
Ross Kenyon: They’re great, yeah.
Bill Fulton: They’re great, they’re expensive, and oftentimes good things are. But when you’re talking about, like, your life — and we’re talking about disaster preparedness and survival and these kits — you’re literally going to be depending upon them for your and your family’s lives. So you don’t want the cheapest thing that’s possible. You want the best thing that you can possibly have that does that job for you, and that’s the item you want to put in your kit.
Ross Kenyon: I think even if you don’t care about the sustainability aspect of the waste of fast fashion and equivalent for other types of products, I think oftentimes they’re just better. I would rather spend the little extra money now to get the thing that’s gonna — like, the lifetime cost of ownership of that is just lower. There’s Machiavellian practical reasons for wanting this, and you don’t have to be some big-hearted environmentalist to do it. Oftentimes it’s just the better product, and will bring you a better sense of happiness with owning it.
Bill Fulton: Like, yeah. And also not wanting to die because your knife breaks.
Ross Kenyon: That. Yeah, that. I wonder how much people are actually able to prepare for that and keep that in mind, because those risks are so outlandish, I think, to many people, that it seems potentially hard to spend a little bit extra to get the brand that really matters, rather than something that was built very, very cheaply, for a small risk. Do you think they should be spending more time on these sort of massive unexpected Black Swan event type risks?
Bill Fulton: Well, I mean, it comes down to like what we were saying before, when you were like, where do you start? And I was like, well, you got to figure out what’s going on in your area. I don’t want you to get ready for that massive Black Swan event. I want you to get ready for the hurricane if you live in a hurricane area, or a flood if you live in a flooding area. So, you know, I want you to spend money on things that you’re going to probably use. So it’s not the massive Black Swan, you know, end of the world as we know it, zombie invasion that you should be prepping for. That’s the other guy’s books. Our book is like, you know, hey, this is what’s going on in your neighborhood. I want you to buy the best things possible for that.
Jeanne Chilton Devon: And I think it’s important too, because certainly a lot of these items, you know, really high quality stuff — you know, for some people All-Clad cookware, that’s, like, aspirational. But in a disaster situation, anything is better than nothing. So I wouldn’t want people to worry that they couldn’t get the best X, Y or Z, and therefore delay getting it or not get it at all. Anyway, I just wanted to throw that in.
Bill Fulton: I think that’s a good thing. I didn’t want to sound classist, but, you know, buy the best quality you can possibly afford of any item, mostly. And I say that for your whole life, so whether it’s a car or clothing. But when we get to survival and we get to disaster preparedness — mostly when we’re looking at those emergency preparedness items, because those are the ones you’re going to be depending on to work when nothing else is, if that makes sense.
Ross Kenyon: I think it makes sense. And many of the things that are in the flow chart of what you should be getting, rank ordered first, second, third — I don’t think they’re that expensive. I think getting the water stuff that I have prepped probably costs low three figures, to get the barrel and to get the rolling unit and stuff like that. And then food is something that, assuming that you cycle through it, can be factored into groceries generally. So it doesn’t necessarily have to be a separate budget item.
There are other things too that I guess I don’t know how seriously one should take. Security and self-defense. I know there is a macho — that you’re a gun enthusiast, I think it’s safe to say, Bill, from reading Blood of Patriots. What advice would you give to someone who, probably listening, is not a firearm owner?
Bill Fulton: So, yeah, I’ve been around them for a minute. I’m also on Veterans for Gun Reform, so I wouldn’t necessarily call myself a gun enthusiast. I am a practitioner of violence, so I do have—
Ross Kenyon: That sounds worse in some ways. That sounds even more ominous.
Bill Fulton: But I do have those as a tool in my toolbox, and like any carpenter, I know how to use my tools. But so, you know, guns have become a political issue, and it’s really a personal choice, if you’re willing to dedicate yourself to storing them correctly, training correctly, and being responsible in your ownership of one at this point with their proliferation. And mostly, you know, Jeannie and I both spend a lot of time in Alaska, where everyone owns guns. It doesn’t matter if you’re a D or an R, you’re gonna own a gun, because there’s a good chance you’re gonna need it at some point, if not many points.
So, you know, I’m pro responsible gun ownership, but I’m also pro that needs to be a decision that you make, that you understand the seriousness of what you’re doing, and that you make sure that you have the correct storage and training before you ever even think about buying a weapon. So does that help, or do I go too far?
Ross Kenyon: No, no. Jeannie, does that match with your experience too? Yeah, I was gonna ask too: as an Alaskan, surely that is a common thing, maybe ubiquitous.
Jeanne Chilton Devon: Yes, gun ownership in Alaska is definitely ubiquitous. And as Bill said, it’s a tool. You know, I think depending on where you live in the country — I went from living in New Jersey to living in Alaska, and the gun culture in those two places could not possibly be more different. So I have had a foot in each camp in terms of where I was living. And I know that when we discussed if we wanted to mention gun ownership in the book, we took it from the point of view of: there are people that will decide that they are going to have a gun for home defense or self-defense, period. They’re gonna have one.
So we wanted to be able to talk to those people and say, OK, since you’re going to have one, the first thing that you need to do is buy a gun safe before you buy a gun. You buy a gun safe like you need, and you need training. And I mean, I think we kind of beat it to death in the section where we do talk about guns, in terms of absolutely safety first. Don’t dare leave that unlocked. Don’t let anybody but you handle it. Don’t handle it unless you have been trained adequately to use it.
I mean, I almost feel like a parent. It’s like, OK, I know you’re going to do something bad at some point, so what do you do? This is what you need to know. And not that gun ownership is necessarily bad, but it’s like, you know that people are going to have their minds made up on a certain thing and they’re going to do it regardless. So we tried to guide them through, if you’re going to do it regardless — because the odds of you injuring yourself or someone else go up astronomically if you have a gun in your house, even if you know how to use it, even if you know you use it properly, most of the time. Those are just the statistics. It just — it is what it is.
So if you’re determined despite that, these are the things that you need to do to minimize anybody getting hurt. You know, this is the ammo you don’t want to have, because if you ever shoot it, it could go through two walls and hit your elderly neighbor who’s making brownies next door. I mean, these are, like, the disaster things we don’t want to bring upon ourselves.
Ross Kenyon: I have a close friend who, her boyfriend came from a gun-owning family in the South and was very experienced with them, but still, he’s cleaning a handgun and shot himself through the top of his foot. Just a horrible place to get shot through. And the exit wound, I think, was quite painful. It took a very long time to heal. And that’s someone who grew up with them, was very comfortable with them. Maybe too comfortable, one might say.
Bill Fulton: But that’s exactly what he was.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, yeah. Never point it somewhere you don’t intend to shoot, your foot being one of those places. Yeah, but a lot of the—
Bill Fulton: But “not willing to destroy” is the way we put it.
Ross Kenyon: That’s a — yeah, even stronger. I like that way of saying it. There’s a lot in here too about— Oh, go ahead, sorry.
Bill Fulton: And I think we often see that in American gun culture, is that people become too comfortable with them and they forget what they’re capable of. And once that happens, that leads to things like accidental shootings, or what we call negligent shootings, because there is no accidental shooting. You pull the trigger, it shoots. That’s negligence, not an accident. So it’s, you know, very much — and we talk about it in the book like that — that’s part of the training, is respecting what a firearm is and never becoming too comfortable with that.
Ross Kenyon: It’s great advice. A lot of the section here on safety and security also focuses on deterrence, though. ’Cause even if you are a gun owner, even if it comes to that — and I hope it never does — there are ways that you could probably defuse the situation, avoid it ahead of time. And honestly, even if you shoot someone in a self-justified way, you’re going to court. You’re being arrested. It’s going to be paperwork, and nobody likes paperwork. So yeah, even if it was entirely — like, there’s video of it, this person was coming at you with an axe and you had to do it — it’s still going to be horrible to deal with. Surely it’d be much better to have security lights and alarms and other ways to just make sure someone doesn’t come to you in a disaster situation, yeah?
Bill Fulton: Absolutely. Because — oh, Jeannie, sorry.
Jeanne Chilton Devon: It’s [unclear] with three people, it’s OK. Sorry. Even if you’re absolutely in the right, somebody was meaning you harm, you did everything properly, and you end up shooting somebody — that’s a terrible mental burden on you as well. You know, it’s not the movies where you go bang, bang, got him, you know, next scene. It’s like, that will be with you for the rest of your life. Even if you do everything properly, you still never, ever want to do it unless there’s absolutely no other recourse. And there is, 99.99% of the time. There’s another recourse that you can use.
Just like you said: safety lights, don’t make yourself a target. Think like someone who was going to break into a house after a disaster situation. What would you be looking for? You’d be looking for darkness. You’d be looking for a house without, you know, a big dog. You would be looking for easy access. You’d be looking for places where you could hide and not be seen. I mean, Bill is the expert on this part. I’m sure he can take it from there. But there’s a lot you can do to deter, which is the best case scenario.
Bill Fulton: Yeah, I think Jeannie said it really well. You know, I think a lot of people don’t understand — and I’ve seen this in Southern gun culture a lot — the second that you bring a gun into the situation, it becomes life and death. And I think a lot of people forget that, mostly these guys going to McDonald’s wearing assault weapons on their backs and other idiocy. So the second that a firearm comes into it, that then becomes a life and death situation, or whatever the situation is. Not all situations need to be life and death situations.
And if you kind of read the security section, you see how we start out with, we want you to start here, and then we’re eventually going to get to all the things we don’t want you doing, but we’re going to talk about those anyway. But what we’d really enjoy you doing is all these other things, so you never have to get over here. And that’s, you know, that’s when it comes to security: deterrence is your best weapon. Not having anything happen to you because you are a hard target, because you haven’t advertised yourself as, hey, come take my things. And we go over the Gray Manning and stuff in the book a lot.
And I think that’s a concept that a lot of people — because, you know, we’ve been told so long that, you know, hey, personal expression, make yourself look loud, be an advocate, all this, assert your rights. So when we start talking about security, what we’re talking about is just blending in 99.9% of the time, not making yourself a target, not being that guy, and avoiding those situations entirely by doing that. And we start there and then just kind of work our way out to, this is the absolute worst thing that you could ever do, don’t do this. But if you do have to do it, this is how. And that’s how we view security.
Ross Kenyon: I had a thought on the ethics of it, where — because deterrence, does it just mean that they go to someone who’s less well prepared to defend themselves than you? Is there a steady state amount of crime and opportunism in a disaster situation, so it just means that someone — I’ve taken the time to think about this ahead of time, and that just means they go to my neighbor who was not thinking, and therefore they are extra victimized. Like, what are the ethics of—
Bill Fulton: But that also allows you to help your neighbor. And we talk about the community a lot in the book, and making those connections within your neighborhood. And, you know, as part of your disaster recovery, your disaster preparedness, in all things that you do, you should be looking at your community too. And again, you know, this book is not written for the guy that wants to douse himself in gun oil and rub it on himself in his mom’s basement. This book is for those people that want to take care of themselves, their families, their neighbors, their communities. And if you take a holistic approach to it like that, then you helping yourself allows you to help your neighbors. So if they do move on to your neighbor and they’re not dealing with you, then you can go help your neighbor.
Jeanne Chilton Devon: And your neighbor — we talk a lot too in the book, like Bill was saying, about community and also about having that network. Like, you should probably already know who your neighbor is, have talked to your neighbor, talk about the safety of the neighborhood. And, you know, my ideal, my wish, my hope to the universe with this book, is that people will read it, they will learn from it, and they will share the knowledge with other people. Because that’s really what it is all about. It’s not about isolationism and being a lone wolf and barricading yourself in and letting the rest of the world go to hell.
It is about having networks ahead of time, knowing your neighbors, knowing who — like, is your neighbor an elderly person? A special needs person? Like, what is your neighbor on the other side? A doctor? Do they have special skills? And creating a neighborhood community where people know each other, know what they can do for one another, know who will need help, and know to check in on one another.
In these situations, you know, you can’t save the entire world and keep the bad guy from breaking into everybody’s house. But you can spread from your individual self out into your surrounding area farther than you think, by knowing your neighbors and by going, oh, you know, my house isn’t flooded, but I should check on the neighbor down the hill. Or, I just saw somebody suspicious go past my house, I need to call so-and-so and tell them to turn all their lights on, or ask them if they need help, or make sure that this person has food. That’s really your number one survival tool, is the people that you know and your neighbors. Because we did not survive all these millennia on our own. We survived in tribes and packs where we supported each other.
Ross Kenyon: That’s the most surprising advice about survivalism, and it’s come up on the show several times over the years, but knowing your neighbors is a great thing to do for so many reasons. But it is something that people don’t necessarily — people think about barricades, zombie-proofing their home, firearm ownership. They’re not thinking about, I should check on my neighbors, I should already know these people, we should have a block party every year, we should find ways to intersect. Because that is a predictor of, I imagine, the longevity of the community members — that that is probably potentially the most highly correlated thing with survival in a disaster situation, is how well you know your neighbors. I have no data for that, but intuitively it does make sense.
Bill Fulton: Right. And for recovery after disaster, it also makes sense. But you know, as — this is the Reversing Climate Change podcast, so as we get in further to climate change having — and this just isn’t for disasters. This is, if you look at where kids excel the most, if you look at where public services are the best, those are all communities that are engaged. So if you want a good quality of life, if you want your children to have a good quality of life, if you want to be able to deal with issues that come up in your community, the best way to do that is to be engaged within your community, to know your neighbors, to work with your neighbors. And so not just in a Survive and Thrive area, disaster preparedness area, but on everything else: knowing your neighbors makes it better.
Jeanne Chilton Devon: And having a better, stronger community, you know, less crime, more of a social safety net, more of an emotional and psychological safety net — all those things come with it. So, you know, I think it’s a great idea even outside of disaster preparedness. The other thing I was going to mention too is knowing, like, what’s a safe house in your neighborhood where kids can go? If parents are trapped at work and kids are coming home from school, what are you going to do?
I mean, all of these things — like, I love my neighbors, and we have multiple block parties a year, and it’s fantastic. I’ve not had it anywhere else that I have lived. But I know if I was alone in my house and I had an accident, I could pick up the phone and call them, or they would say, I haven’t seen Jeannie outside today, I wonder if everything — you know, she was having some medical problems, I wonder if everything’s OK. I mean, just having that, it gives peace of mind. And as Bill said, that’s the way that communities will thrive. And surviving is necessary, but thriving is optimal.
Ross Kenyon: Thriving is optimal. I have people on my street of both R and D camps, and I’ll see their political signs at election time, and I know the way that they lean. I think knowing them in person also softens a lot of the polarization. I think being able to say that — sure, they might disagree with me on this, but they’re a good person, and I know that because they gave out Halloween candy and we had a chat and they’re very nice people. And I think a lot of that, as opposed to just retreating into your own little camps, arguing online and yelling at each other and separating entirely — I often feel that it is a good binding experience, just seeing that actually there’s someone on the other end of this keyboard or the screen that loves their kids and wants the world to be a better place, you know, within reason. I think it’s safe to say that.
Bill Fulton: Absolutely. Well, and it’s a good way to be an ambassador for whoever you are. You know, if you say, hey, you know, we’re in hurricane country here, let’s do a phone tree, let’s just make sure that our block, you know, is all accountable, and make sure that if something bad happens — like, you know, my in-laws are in Clarksville, Tennessee, holy cow, like, they just had, you know, the ripper tornado go through there. And it’s like, if you live in an area where you know that something like that could happen, check — you know, know who you should check in on.
But I don’t think anybody, regardless of their politics, would be mad at you for saying, I want to check in on you if something bad happens. Like, can you give me your contact information? Would you mind if I came over and knocked on your door, if I feel like you need to check in? I think people like that.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, it’s a nice thing.
Bill Fulton: I live way out in the country, so we just have to do that anyway, ’cause, you know, if the bridge gets blocked by a tree or ice, nobody’s getting out. So you got to know who has tractors and excavators at 4:30 in the morning. It’s just the way it works around here. But I’m spoiled.
Ross Kenyon: It sounds like you’re spoiled. You said at the beginning of the show — that caught my ear and I wanted to come back to, Bill — which was that you think in some cases people need to chill, or there’s an ability to, once you do some basic amount of prep, not to panic. You can watch some Netflix. Maybe people do — people need to be feeling a lot of anxiety right now. Is that productive, to a point? Does it become counterproductive? How are you thinking about that?
Bill Fulton: I think — well, I mean, one of the reasons we wrote the book was to help people with their anxiety. So, you know, if you look at the mental health crisis that we’ve been facing since COVID hit, and we still have a mental health crisis going on in the U.S., if you look at, you know, counseling numbers and medications. And so anxiety, to a certain point, it’s a motivator, and after that it becomes destructive. And what I would much rather you do is have some sense of control of what’s going on with you and the world around you. Because even when everything goes—
Ross Kenyon: Absolutely. [unclear]
Bill Fulton: I’m trying to make it G-rated here. So even when everything absolutely goes to shit, if you have a little bit of control over what’s going on in your life and your world, and you can just control that, that sense of control can get you through. At least you’re doing something.
And I think with when COVID hit, nobody had any control. You didn’t have control over when you could go to the store. You didn’t have control over where you worked. Everybody was — you got to go home. There’s only five people allowed in the store at one time between the hours of 11 and 12, and that’s it. And there’s nothing on the shelves, and deal with. So I think, you know, we’re — as Americans, we’re used to everything being readily available to us all the time at a moment’s notice. When that didn’t happen, that loss of control over our lives is what really started to do people in on the mental health side.
So, you know, the book, we’re trying to give people at least a little bit of control. So when you have that anxiety, you can go, you know what, I’ve got the ability to charge my cell phone, I’ve got a little food and water, I’m gonna be OK. And then it doesn’t matter what happens outside of that, because you and yours are going to be OK, and then you can check on your neighbors. They’re going to be OK, great. So it’s not like you have to, you know, live on a 30-acre farm and make all your own power and food, but just having that little bit of control is important. The one time I leave space for Jeannie, you got nothing.
Ross Kenyon: I think her dog was barking.
Jeanne Chilton Devon: I’m sorry.
Ross Kenyon: It’s OK. It’s always a little bit weird, the traffic cop elements with this. Yeah, go ahead.
Jeanne Chilton Devon: Absolutely, having that sense of control is extremely important. And we’ve dedicated a big chunk of the end of the book to mental wellness, mental health. And that’s another thing that you don’t really often see in survival books. They don’t say, like, OK, here’s some exercises that you can do that will, like, chill you the heck out, you know. Have you tried music? Music will release happy chemicals that will help you to overcome. Like, just little things like that. It’s all — you know, your biggest enemy is going to be your brain and the negative thoughts you have and the panic that you have. And, you know, what if this is all gonna go terrible? And what if? You know, what if?
I mean, you can imagine what-ifs as big as you can, but there are ways that you can guide yourself to control your own brain chemistry to make it easier on you. You can, you know, avoid alcohol, avoid sugar. Nobody wants to hear this, but in excess those things cannot be great for you. You don’t want to be jacked up on caffeine, you know, to the point where you’re not thinking right. Music is good. Meditation is good. Do calisthenics on a YouTube video. Bike around the neighborhood if you can. You know, all of these things are going to help you keep in tune the biggest tool that you have, which is your own brain.
Because if your brain’s not working right and you’re making bad decisions and you’re letting anxiety rule and dictate how you act, it’s not going to be good. So you have to treat your brain like you treat your car. You can’t say, I’m sorry, I really have to get somewhere, I’ve got no time to stop for gas. It’s like, you better stop for gas or you’re not going to get there. You know, you need to treat yourself with the same respect that you would treat a vital disaster tool that you need to survive.
Ross Kenyon: I think it’s very sensible advice, and I consume a lot of this content. I care about this. I find it personally enriching to do this. I also feel like it’s good anxiety management. I am a family man. It’s part of my job to make sure in a bad situation that we’re at least reasonably protected. A lot of the shows that I watch have a disaster theme to them. You don’t see any of the mental well-being portions. Surely almost everyone in The Walking Dead should have post-traumatic stress disorder and should have a hard time functioning in, like, triggering moments. Like, maybe all the people that have it have died off, and maybe that’s why it’s not featured in the show. They just got Darwin’d out of existence in a zombie world.
Bill Fulton: That was last episode. They’ve gotten over it.
Jeanne Chilton Devon: It’s just fiction, though, and that’s why they don’t show it. But yeah, I think that would be, like, an interesting possible—
Ross Kenyon: There’s a game that I played years ago called Amnesia: The Dark Descent, and it was based on the work of H.P. Lovecraft. And Lovecraft’s monsters are always beyond human comprehension, and they drive people mad because they can’t comprehend what it is. And whenever the monster would come, you couldn’t look at it or it would drive you into psychosis and you would just die, because the monster would get you. So you had to avert your gaze. Is there anything like that? And if you’re in a disaster situation, should you be doing things to prevent PTSD or exposure to trauma that might linger on for a very long time?
Bill Fulton: I’ll let Jeannie answer this one. I’m a vet with ADHD and PTSD, so I can’t answer this question. Jeannie.
Ross Kenyon: I wanna hear from both of you, but yes, let’s do it.
Jeanne Chilton Devon: I would say — and this is something, I guess I hadn’t really considered this a lot, so this is just kind of an off-the-cuff answer. But I think that in terms of, let’s talk about news consumption for this disaster — like, you need to know when the tornado is coming, you need to know are you in a watch area or a warning area, you need to know all of this. But once the disaster has happened — tornado, flood, earthquake — I think if you focus in on watching the aftermath of a disaster that you can do nothing about, I think that can be detrimental.
I mean, I honestly believe that overconsumption of news in general, because it’s never really good, it can be bad for our mental health. And there’s a line, like, with the news, between being informed and being so over-informed that it paralyzes the way that you’re able to live your own life and control your own thoughts and control your own anxiety or depression, especially with climate change. I mean, you could sit there and think about it all day and just be overcome. So I think there is a point at which, when it starts to be debilitating for your ability to act, that you need to scale it back a little bit, especially when there’s, like, nothing that you can do about that one thing.
And but I think we have, you know, we can’t take our eyes off the disaster. You know, like, I think back on 9/11. You know how many of the people that were alive and thinking at that point and watching the TV — how many times can you watch the plane hit the building? How many times can you watch the people jumping off the top floor before it paralyzes you? It makes you overcome with grief and anger and sadness and all those things, and it makes you less able to do the things that you need to do. So I’m not saying, like, if a disaster happens, ignore everything around you and don’t help. If you can help, absolutely help — that’s getting back to the neighbor thing. But I think sort of watching the disaster porn, like, nonstop, is not healthy. Long-winded answer.
Bill Fulton: Hey, I thought it was good.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, I thought it was good too. [unclear] But you don’t have to talk about this if it’s bad for you to do so, but if you—
Bill Fulton: No, no, no, no. I — having a mental distraction. You know, we talk in the book about having board games and cards and watching a movie. And so having those mental distractions that make life feel a little bit normal, even when everything outside of you is completely abnormal, really important to prevent, you know, just completely losing it, essentially. And then, you know, we just talked about it: having that little bit of knowledge and feeling of control can do amazing things for things like PTSD.
So one of the reasons you get PTSD is that the emotions and whatever happens to you is so overwhelming, and you have no control over it and you can’t stop it, and it’s just an event that rolls into you and rolls over you. So anything that you can do to give yourself more control and more say in what’s going on to you and what’s going on to you mentally, and then distract you from the things you really don’t need to be dealing with — those are all good things to do. And we talk about it all in the book.
So, you know, I think, and from somebody with ADHD, where oddly we suck at regular life, but give us an emergency or a disaster with 8,000 inputs of information and we will excel. So, you know, for me the PTSD comes from, like, having to go to the grocery store and talk to some normal human being about stupid shit in football. That’s my worst case scenario. My best case scenario is the sky is falling down around me and I get to deal with 200 data streams of just absolute nonsense that makes me so happy. So I have a different view on disasters. I excel during them.
Ross Kenyon: Was that always the way that you were? Is that a legacy of soldiering or something else?
Bill Fulton: I think it’s always the way I was. And you know, I got diagnosed with ADHD later in life, only about four years ago. And like, one of the things that is very common with people with ADHD is that in emergent or emergency situations they excel. So it’s just been with me the whole time. And if you look at the amount of people that are, like, you know, EMTs, special operations units, military test pilots, like crazy adrenaline junkies, most of them have an ADHD diagnosis at some point. So, yeah, I think it was just something genetic I was born with.
Ross Kenyon: So you’re not advising anyone to go out there and become ADHD? That’s not something you can recommend.
Bill Fulton: No, no. Neither am I advising them to go and insert themselves in 90% of the situations I’ve put myself in in my life.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, I guess you’ve sought them out more than you had to. There’s a strong, maybe, danger-seeking element to your life. Or, I mean, bounty hunting, come on. You like door kicking. That’s a thing.
Bill Fulton: Yeah, but that’s more of a justice thing. I have a very, very strong sense of right and wrong, and I like making evil people cry.
Ross Kenyon: I see. So you don’t associate that with an enjoyment of — ’cause you could also do immigration law and help people who are being deported, and yet that’s different from door kicking.
Bill Fulton: Yeah, but I want to punish the bad people. I don’t want to help the good people necessarily — well, I do, indirectly. But before Jeannie makes the cutting motion again—
Jeanne Chilton Devon: No.
Bill Fulton: You’re killing me, man.
Ross Kenyon: I’m just saying, good, this is good stuff.
Bill Fulton: Punishing the bad people more than I like helping the good people. And that’s not necessarily a bad thing, you know. It’s just what I’m good at. But, you know, and I think that goes back to my childhood, and we go over that, you know, in the beginning of the book, we talk a lot about that, Blood of Patriots. So yeah, for me, you know, making evil people cry and beg is my good Saturday night.
Ross Kenyon: How are you going to follow that, Jeannie? What are you going to do? What can you even possibly say after that?
Jeanne Chilton Devon: It takes all kinds to make the world go round.
Ross Kenyon: You are a skillful diplomat. Wow, I can see why you two are paired up. This is a productive partnership.
Bill Fulton: Oh, Jeannie’s the anti-Bill. That’s why it works so well.
Ross Kenyon: Yeah, I think if you were both more dispositionally similar, you’d amplify all the same bad and good parts, and you’d be left very balanced, and then it’s just bad.
Bill Fulton: Yeah, I think we have. I think we have good balance.
Ross Kenyon: Well, I certainly recommend reading Survive and Thrive: How to Prepare for Any Disaster Without Ammo, Camo, or Eating Your Neighbor. Is there anything else you would like to talk about or reference while you’re still here? Jeannie, Bill? Blood of Patriots, too, the previous book, is also a fascinating tale of what it’s like in contemporary Alaska politics, the militia movement. Really fascinating [unclear].
Jeanne Chilton Devon: I guess one thing about Survive and Thrive that I’ve said once, but I really want to reiterate, is that I think one of the most important things that you can do is not only to hopefully buy the book, read the book, absorb it, but pass that on to others. Don’t, you know, don’t hoard that information. When you have good information that is going to help you, your neighbors, your community, your planet, the way that it’s gonna work is if we spread it out and if we share it. And if that means, you know, buying your neighbor a copy of the book, great. If it means talking to them about, you know, the emergency plan, that’s great too. But this is meant to be multiplied and shared.
Bill Fulton: I would also add that, you know, as climate change comes down on us, which we’re seeing right now, and we’re just seeing the very beginnings of what’s gonna happen regardless of how much we do now to fix it. I mean, we’re at least 20 years behind on the lead, even if we fixed it today.
Ross Kenyon: I think that’s true.
Bill Fulton: So as those things happen, there is a new world that we are going to have to prepare ourselves and our children and our grandchildren for. And this book is kind of the start for us. It is not a one shot, one kill deal, and we plan on coming out with more. But more importantly, you know, I want people to look at this as, you know, hey, this isn’t just about me, it’s about my kids, it’s about my grandchildren. It’s about what this country and world’s going to be 50 years from now, 100 years from now. And you know, if we don’t start preparing now to be more sustainable and more self-sufficient, we’re not gonna have the time later. So get it in now.
Jeanne Chilton Devon: But we still can. [unclear] And once you start, it’s very empowering. You know, once people do one thing they say, I can do this. Well, if I can do this, I can do that. And it really is, just like Bill was saying, it is a sustainable lifestyle that will pull us through. You know, “sustainability is survival” was one of our alternate titles, but it’s very true. So the whole disaster survival part of it really blends in with the sustainable green thinking, moving forward into a world where we’re going to need to take way better care of it than we have thus far, if we’re all going to make it out the other side.
Ross Kenyon: I feel very similarly. We didn’t even talk about the food production angle of this too. But I keep chickens, and it helps me connect with eating and appreciate the food that I buy and make myself, to be — I don’t know, I just feel better and more connected to the entire food system, in a way where it’s different from being a consumer. And also, you know, if something bad happens, you have meat chickens if you truly need it, but ideally they’re just laying chickens, and that is happening alongside your garden and other things.
And it does reduce anxiety to take steps where it’s not just something bad happens and you are just the recipient of bad. There’s something that you can do that actually will improve your likelihood of success and survivability and thrivability, and that’s good. You don’t have to — this doesn’t have to be an anxious thing. This can be a spiritually positive, fulfilling thing. And I think your book, and both the way that you speak here, captures that. And it’s better for your life anyway.
Bill Fulton: Fresh eggs, and you know, the waste from their coop you can put on your garden, helps you grow vegetables. And a lot of the things that we talk about in the book are things that normally people probably wouldn’t connect with, like, disaster preparedness or survival. But they are. And the more sustainable and self-sufficient you are, the less you have to worry about what goes on out there. And the more sustainable and self-sufficient your neighbors are, and your community, the less you have to worry about.
And the more communities that become more sustainable and self-sufficient means that a localized disaster that affects one, the others can help, and it won’t affect the others as much. And as we move into climate change, and we begin, you know, mass migrations and other things that are gonna happen — that’s talking about the future here, not too distant future — but as we move to those things, we’re gonna have to start living this way. So, as Jeannie said, it’s kind of a road map for your life. And that’s separate from the disaster preparedness, which is just a benefit of living a more self-sufficient, sustainable lifestyle.
Ross Kenyon: Well, thank you, Jeannie and Bill, both for being here. It was a great show. Really appreciate your time, and thanks for being here.
Jeanne Chilton Devon: Thank you so much for having us.
Ross Kenyon: Thank you so much for listening. If you could please subscribe and give us a great rating and review on Apple Podcasts, or a rating on Spotify, that’d be much appreciated. It helps us get our content out to more people. You can sign up for our newsletter at nori.com, follow us on social media, and we will catch you next time.
